How many rebreathers do I need to teach?

[Jim Lapenta]

Scary ain't it? I could not myself see teaching any kind of SCCR or CCR with less than 100 hours on it. Let me get on one regularly and that might change to 200!

 

[kwinter]

I don't really agree that you get impartiality from an instructor (or salesman) that represents one brand or type. Your own comments reinforce that, Rob, when you say things like KISS rebreathers are the best or most robust or safest. You can say you think they're the best for you and your philosophy and your kind of diving. But the whole decision process has to start with the individual. mCCR or eCCR or hCCR? What kind of monitoring or controller? BMCL vs FMCL vs TOSCL? Every feature has certain aspects that might be an advantage for one diver and a disadvantage for another. Rebreathers are very personal things.

There is also the natural human tendency to justify choices. This happens all the time. Even after someone struggles with a choice as being virtually equal, he will almost always defend his choice as the best after making the purchase. People are loathe to give up on something they specifically decided on, even after buyer's remorse sets in.

I know instructors that teach several different units and dive even more of them. But they usually have a stated preference for one. Add Helium boasts one of the best showrooms around with many, many different rebreathers. But I believe Peter sells far more rEvo than any other. Is it because after trying several kinds every diver feels the rEvo is the best? Or is it presented that way? Personally, I have found every rebreather to be a compromise among features, safety, cost, etc.

I don't care if an instructor teaches on more than one unit. But the instructor should be able to discuss the pros and cons of various units and their features without injecting too much personal prejudice. That's just my opinion.

Ken

 

[Wookie]

As a relatively impartial outside observer (I don't dive a rebreather, I won't dive a rebreather, I have no desire for a rebreather, but I sure see a lot of them) and a man of many opinions, you will get the benefit of mine. I think that Kim/Mike make a great rebreather. Simple, easy to use, can't screw it up. Well, except for the folks who dive it beyond what it is meant for, or don't pay attention to their PO2, or (the list goes on). I see very few of them on the Spree. I don't know if that's because the type of diving we do isn't well suited to the KISS, or KISS divers tend to dive in caves, or there are just not that many of them out there, but I see wayyy more Inspo/Evo/REVO/Megs than KISS. I'm pretty sure the REVO is a south Florida thing, Add Helium pushes them very hard.

Inspo/Evo are the first to break. With any multi-day trip with a number of AP rebreathers, better bring at least one spare head. Usually it's operator error, as in, the ADV solenoid got water in it, but still. Why do we see the most AP failures? By far, they are the most popular rebreather we see. I've never seen a Meg fail (second most popular), or a REVO, but sometimes those rev C handsets on the Optimas (and the newly installed rev. D handsets) have caused problems for their owners.

A dive instructor who teaches one brand of rebreather is like a carpenter who only has a 16 oz. framing hammer. If you want to frame a barn, you're golden, and posses the proper tool for the job. If you want to build cabinets, you need to expand your toolbox. I don't think a KISS is always the proper tool for the job.

Do you?

 

[Byte Me]

A dive instructor who teaches one brand of rebreather is like a carpenter who only has a 16 oz. framing hammer. If you want to frame a barn, you're golden, and posses the proper tool for the job. If you want to build cabinets, you need to expand your toolbox. I don't think a KISS is always the proper tool for the job.

Do you?

This was my point in posting the snippet that started this thread. ALL rebreathers have compromises and as a relative newb trying to decide what to purchase I relied heavily on the reading I did on forums, books, etc. but even more important was a network of friends who dive various units to get pros and cons of each as well as input from an instructor whom I trust, who has years of knowledge teaching various units and who has now focused on, primarily, two. I didn't know what I didn't know and with only a year on my unit under my belt still have tons to learn, but leaning on people with more experience was invaluable. Part of that trust in my instructor is that he has knowledge of how, when and why to use each "hammer" and that he wasn't going to lead me to a unit simply because it's the ONE hammer he uses. His needs are different than mine!

 

[TSandM]

As someone who has looked into the world of rebreathers with curiosity, I think one of the biggest challenges for someone who wants to make that transition is, "Which unit is the best -- or at least the best for me?" It's hard for a non-RB diver to know what questions to ask, or to evaluate the answers. An instructor who only teaches on one unit cannot be depended upon to know a great deal about other units, and clearly has a bias, whether well-grounded or not will depend on the person.

If you have done your homework and made your own decisions, finding an instructor who teaches on the unit you have decided to buy is no problem, I think. It's just that most of us would like some fairly balanced input on which type is what we will be happiest living with, and folks who have defined their niche don't appear, at least to me, to be the people to get that kind of information from.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

At DEMA this year I was encouraged to give up the idea of teach open water recreational Sidemount course that one of our branches has in development for one agency I cert through and try to focus on getting people into "recreational" rebreathers. Sidemount I was told point blank in front of several other instructors was "too technical".

But if I were to just get instructor certified on the Poseidon MkVI I could increase my revenue stream, RENT the units out by the day, and get people into them quickly. Now I understand that this was coming from the guy who wrote our instructor course for it, but Jesus. I looked briefly into what this would entail and wow, just to get one unit for myself is going run 5-6 grand, then the training, then logging the hours I would want to have before even thinking of teaching it, and it just seemed ridiculous.

Now in some areas it may make sense. But not for me and that's just on one unit. Getting certed to dive multiple units, log the hours, and then go through the process of getting certed to teach them makes little sense in my current location and life status in general. I have only been on one unit. An AP systems for a try dive. After the first of the year I'm scheduled to try a Hollis. Maybe if I had the kind of income to justify even owning one I'd think about teaching it. But I simply don't and don't foresee that happening.

I know who you are referring to Jim.
;-)
Too true......referring to the......"and get people into them quickly." comment.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I don't really agree that you get impartiality from an instructor (or salesman) that represents one brand or type. Your own comments reinforce that, Rob, when you say things like KISS rebreathers are the best or most robust or safest.

I think you misread my comments. I stated they have the best safety record. That's a fact based on all the deaths that have occurred on rebreathers. I never stated they are the best or most robust, simply that they are simple and robust. There are other rebreathers that meet those qualifications.

I teach lots of sidemount classes. I'll teach sidemount to students in any rig. I've had students in Nomads, SMS100s, Armadillos, Razors, Stealths, UTD, and on and on. I'm completely impartial when it comes to sidemount. My preferred rig for diving steel cylinders is the Armadillo. That's the one I dive the most. Yet, when I have students that are looking for a rig to buy I ask them several questions and rarely recommend the Armadillo because other rigs seem to work better for them. Impartiality can exist and does.

---------- Post added November 24th, 2013 at 10:11 PM ----------

As someone who has looked into the world of rebreathers with curiosity, I think one of the biggest challenges for someone who wants to make that transition is, "Which unit is the best -- or at least the best for me?" It's hard for a non-RB diver to know what questions to ask, or to evaluate the answers. An instructor who only teaches on one unit cannot be depended upon to know a great deal about other units, and clearly has a bias, whether well-grounded or not will depend on the person.

Just because an instructor only teaches on one unit doesn't mean he doesn't know a great deal about other units. Jim Lapenta pointed out the costs involved in getting instructor ratings for various units. Many of us don't have the desire, time, or money to pursue all these other ratings for a rebreather we'll rarely, if ever, dive after getting the instructor rating on it.

 

[TSandM]

Oh, I totally understand, Rob! Rebreathers are painfully expensive, and the training on them is pretty dear, too.

I'm just saying that, if I were to look for a rebreather instructor, I'd do one of two things: Either I'd look for a place like Add Helium, that works with a ton of units, and I'd be able to ask all my questions, or I'd do my homework, decide on a unit, and go get training from someone very versed in that particular machine.

 

[Dive-aholic]

But based on Frank's post it seems like if you went to Add Helium you'd be almost guaranteed to walk out the door with a Revo.

 

[tstormdiver]

But based on Frank's post it seems like if you went to Add Helium you'd be almost guaranteed to walk out the door with a Revo.

Not necessarily. Are you not the customer & is not the decision yours to make? Unless you are a salesman's dream, they can only make suggestions. If you ask the questions correctly you can make them compare the units, whether they are biased or not. You have at a minimum, the basic knowledge of how the units work. What you may want to know is what is the work of breathing of this unit vs that unit, back mounted CL's vs Shoulder mounted CL's, monitoring &/or controlling electronics, pre & post dive maintenance particular to the particular units you are interested in. Make them explain the + & - of each unit you want to know about. They may push a certain unit, but the ultimate decision is yours. Some other places you can go for references or help (if you are not already familiar with them) would be rebreather specific sites like Rebreather World ( Rebreather Forums - Rebreather World ) or CCR Explorers ( CCR Explorers ), even Jill's web site ( http://www.rebreatherpro.com/ ) has some good information. Where you can ask questions to some of the top people in the areas of particular units. I'm sure there are other forums I may not be familiar with. Do your homework & don't just go off of 1 source. Add Helium might give you a start but look for other sources too.