How many non-tech divers carry a pony bottle?

[Web Monkey]

Being a buddy is a two-way street, having a pony won't change my current behaviour regarding buddy proximity.

I think that most divers who maintain poor buddy contact are going to do that regardless of gear or configuration.

Since my wife doesn't dive, when on vacation, my buddy selection process typically involves the DM pointing at someone and saying, "Why don't you two buddy up".

While I don't mind diving with anybody who isn't actively trying to get killed, I also don't plan on trusting that they'll be able to help in an emergency, and therefore bring my own emergency gas, which is either a 19 or 30 depending on depth.

It is most defintely part of my plan. It's the part that handles "Something Bad happened and my buddy is missing or freaked out".

Terry

 

[ArcticDiver]

In addition to equipment and gas planning considerations that have been thoroughly hashed out there is one other reason for NOT using a pony: Lack of Practice With It.

In the past year I have been with several divers who were using that small tank called a "pony". Case 1: Diver flew to destination with valve out of pony per regulations. Had pony filled at boat. When he went to use it, the pony was empty. Why? He hadn't gotten all the plugs back in tightly. Case 2: Diver lost his regulator in rough sea. When replacing it in his mouth he accidentally got the wrong regulator. Later called at OOA and aborted. In fact main tank was nearly full. Case 3: Diver wasn't used to the asymetrical loading of the pony. So trim was off. So, he used more air and blundered all over the ocean during the dive. Complained about dive being too short. Case 4: Diver had pony regulator pinned so he couldn't get at it. And so on and so on.

Mind you I'm not finding fault with the divers here. In my opinion they have been ill served by the training agencies. A diver who has been taught that an extra small bottle of gas is the solution to safety issues can not be blamed for following that teaching. Hopefully, through threads like this one the diver can be correctly informed and be a more comfortable, safer diver.

 

[Meng_Tze]

That is what I was implying. Just saying using the rule of thirds can be misleading. One may presume that that implies using 1,000psi out, and 1,000 psi back.

-Michael

I can mean 1000 out and 1000 back. It all depends on how much gas you carry. Gas rules are not 'static numbers'. The gas rules pump out gas consumption numbers based on parameters you set:

Total gas, RB, reserves, usable gas, fudge factor, depth, time, SAC, workload etc, etc.

Saying rule of 1/3's should not be misleading to anyone who knows how to do proper gas planning. It becomes conveluted when people mention rule of 1/3 and do not have the know-how on how to apply it, or any gas management planning for that matter.

 

[Meng_Tze]

As you properly stated, it is a third of available and usable gas, not reserve gas.

-Michael

BTW correction:

It is 1/3 of usable gas only. Not available, not reserve. Usable is a function of reserve (RB, other reserves etc).

 

[ClayJar]

ArcticDiver: Actually, I'll have to disagree with you. I certainly *do* find fault with the divers in those four cases, and although that fault is very likely the result of poor (or even misguided) training, ignorance is no excuse. Their training may take the blame for their faults, but the faults are theirs.

It may seem as if I'm splitting hairs; however, I believe there is a real distinction between training being to blame and the divers' faults which follow. Perhaps it would be better phrased if I said the blame for the faults lies with the training, but once the training is over, the faults and the responsibility for them are the sole domain of the divers.

Anyway, regardless of the hair-splitting semantics, lack of practice is hardly unique to a pony. Would I tell someone to not dive with the liability of, say, an "octo" secondary because they haven't practiced with one? After all, they could catch the hose, dangle the reg, have it freeflow, inhale water (from a torn, unchecked diaphragm), etc. Obviously, in order to be able to function with your gear in a real or potential emergency, you must practice with it, and if you're wearing a pony specifically for such a case, you should make doubly sure it's second nature to use.

The fact that some divers have a pony but do not practice with it is, perhaps, a reason to think carefully about why you would want a pony and what diving with a pony will require for it to be an asset and not a potential or real liability. However, the fact that some divers do not practice with a pony is certainly not damning to the concept of having one.

If you wish to dive a pony for the redundancy it can provide, it is *your* responsibility to know its limitations and to practice with it regularly enough that using it will be second-nature should the need ever arise. If you buy a pony "for redundancy" and do not consider the limitations and the need for practice, or if you use it for additional dive time instead of emergency bailout gas, then I will have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about considering any consequences to be completely your fault and responsibility.

I dive a 19cf pony. I know my proper weighting and trim with it. I practice breathing on it. I carry it for one reason and one reason only, and that is for an emergency redundant air supply in case of a sudden failure of my primary gas supply. If I should ever encounter such an emergency, I would deploy it immediately, thumb my dive, and proceed to the surface, confident that it is in working order and that it is capable of providing me with enough air to reach the surface with my normal ascent profile (including stops). If anyone can say that I am reducing my safety by carrying a pony, please say so now. I await your enlightenment.

 

[steve70638]

David, I am with you. Particularly when I am wreck diving I carry an aluminum 6 cu bail bottle. Just enough for a wreck escape and a controlled ascent with no or little SS. Sherwood has a tiny pressure gauge that screws into the HP port of the Stage 1. Look at H2Odyssey based systems. All I am looking for is the difference between drowning or a crash ascent and its ramifications if my buddy drifts too far or if he panics when I come grabbing. For me, this is particularly an issue because I frequently dive without my regular buddy and with just a random boat slob.

This is not a gas management issue, this is a primary equipment failure issue.

Regardig running out of air, while there is no excuse for running out of air, mistakes happen and the price of making that mistake are way too high. A small bottle fits on the BC strap, is not a weighting factor and can be passed to another distressed diver easily. Furthermore I am not crazy about a larger pony because it is a pain in the butt to attach to your main tank on a crowded charter boat where your tanks are all lined up.

 

[htn123]

Disclaimer: I am not using a "pony/stage" bottle yet.
But here is how I view this subject, correct me if my thinking is wrong.

To me, the pony bottle is like the airbag in your car. It is there in case the stuff hits the fan.

Yes, I will dutifully fill my gas tank, check my tires, replace my wiper and make sure that I change lanes when it's safe .... so on and so forth BUT the other guy on the other lane might not be as careful as I am (read my diving buddy is not as careful in gas planning as I am). And equipments fail, tire get blown (read o-ring blows, first stage freezed up). So I would definitely want an insurance to protect me from s*** happens.

Now, some will say, with your NASCAR training and your NASA gas planning you should not need an airbag at all. Matter fact airbag is for sissy or for someone who has not gone through NASA equipment training yet ... so on and so forth. Really?

Yes, there will be idiots out there who will think airbag will save them from a head-on collision or going NASCAR on the highway. To them I said Darwin laws will always prevail. BUT for majority of the normal people, I said that extra insurance is welworth, PROVIDE you do now how to use it and not abusing it.

Same thing can said to the idiots who think the pony is for the extra 10-20 minutes of dive time. I said Darwin will take care of that ( don't meant to be mean here but that's how I called it).


Am I over simplify this? or is this this simple?

 

[KMD]

Just out of curiosity, what do you propose then in circumstances you feel rule of 1/3 is not the most conservative, or inappropriate strategy. Can you give an example, a situation where it would be inappropriate? Unless you go super conservative (like for instance 1/6th or 1/8th) 1/3rd would be very conservative in OW?

BTW Overhead does not always mean a physical overhead... it can be deco ceilings, having to go back to the point of entry (i.e. going back to the anchor line, not always a tech dive)..

One example would be entering and traveling with the flow in a cave. The OW analogy would having to travel out with the current and return against it.

Overhead means just that, any place where its either impossible or not wise to directly surface. It also can include diving in active boat channels for that matter.

 

[Meng_Tze]

Disclaimer: I am not using a "pony/stage" bottle yet.
But here is how I view this subject, correct me if my thinking is wrong.

To me, the pony bottle is like the airbag in your car. It is there in case the stuff hits the fan.

Yes, I will dutifully fill my gas tank, check my tires, replace my wiper and make sure that I change lanes when it's safe .... so on and so forth BUT the other guy on the other lane might not be as careful as I am (read my diving buddy is not as careful in gas planning as I am). And equipments fail, tire get blown (read o-ring blows, first stage freezed up). So I would definitely want an insurance to protect me from s*** happens.

Now, some will say, with your NASCAR training and your NASA gas planning you should not need an airbag at all. Matter fact airbag is for sissy or for someone who has not gone through NASA equipment training yet ... so on and so forth. Really?

Yes, there will be idiots out there who will think airbag will save them from a head-on collision or going NASCAR on the highway. To them I said Darwin laws will always prevail. BUT for majority of the normal people, I said that extra insurance is welworth, PROVIDE you do now how to use it and not abusing it.

Same thing can said to the idiots who think the pony is for the extra 10-20 minutes of dive time. I said Darwin will take care of that ( don't meant to be mean here but that's how I called it).


Am I over simplify this? or is this this simple?

I follow your analogy..... but..."(read my diving buddy is not as careful in gas planning as I am)"...

doesnt that tell you something?

While I can see the benefit to some to carry a pony bottle. Bottom line is that you need to decide what it there for, how to deploy it and when to use it. I personally do not dive with ANY buddy who breaks gas rules. It puts them and myself at risk.

Unless there is a failure and/or unforeseen issue there is no need to go beyond what gas volume was planned. If one of these two happens, thats is what I have my reserves and my buddy's reserves for.

 

[vanDavid]

Hi Steve,

I went with a 20 cu ft Luxfor, small SPG that screws directly into a HP port and an Atomic Z2 regulator. I pick it up this evening, hopefully I'll get a chance to try it out this weekend.

cheers

David, I am with you. Particularly when I am wreck diving I carry an aluminum 6 cu bail bottle. Just enough for a wreck escape and a controlled ascent with no or little SS. Sherwood has a tiny pressure gauge that screws into the HP port of the Stage 1. Look at H2Odyssey based systems. All I am looking for is the difference between drowning or a crash ascent and its ramifications if my buddy drifts too far or if he panics when I come grabbing. For me, this is particularly an issue because I frequently dive without my regular buddy and with just a random boat slob.

This is not a gas management issue, this is a primary equipment failure issue.

Regardig running out of air, while there is no excuse for running out of air, mistakes happen and the price of making that mistake are way too high. A small bottle fits on the BC strap, is not a weighting factor and can be passed to another distressed diver easily. Furthermore I am not crazy about a larger pony because it is a pain in the butt to attach to your main tank on a crowded charter boat where your tanks are all lined up.