How many non-tech divers carry a pony bottle?

[MikeFerrara]

The terminology changes with the intent of the dive. As far as I am concernrd a pony is a stage bottle and a stage bottle is a pony bottle. For me it is for equipment falure and bad gas mgmt or you just a plain ol back-up.

A stage bottle is NOT there in case of equipment failures. A stage bottle is additional gas carried for the purpose of extending dive time. We apply the same gas management rules to stage bottles that we do to the rest of our gas supply. Emergency gas, is accounted for in that gas plan.

I dive with some Hoover vacuume cleaners (bad sac rates) so inorder to not have to bail with my buddy I clip my 40cf to a guy who has 500psig in his 80cf when I have 1500psig in my 95cf and away we go!! i call it my "save-a-dive bottle

This is an example of NO gas planning.

 

[scubalifer]

It has been my experience in scuba diving ANYTHING is possible,,and sometimes at the worst time and place....sure it might occur under some circumstances,,,we try to prepare ourselves as best we can for the unknown contingency.

I am sorry. But your last couple of posts don't make any sense. On a normal brainless rec dive we get back on the boat with 500 psi. This is industry standard I do believe. We tend to turn our dives when the sheep herder, I mean dm, turns us. We normally don't listen to the dive briefing. We have to suit up don't we. We must be first in the water, record the deepest depth, and stay down the longest! There is your management 101 on most rec dive boat I have ever seen. Here is the gas management. " I have a computer. It does all my calculations for me. I don't have to worry about anything."

My point is turning a dive w/o an ooa and surfacing in a normal manner puts you on the surface with a third of your gas supply still in your primary bottle. That would be about 1000 psi in an 80. So you already have a "back up" of 500 in your 80 just to reach the point you would more than likely have gotten out of the water with. Now if your partner turns with you, together you have 1000 psi in 80's as back up w/o even carrying a sling. You may ask your self "How did I get here". Hey, gas management!

 

[MikeFerrara]

I find it great to practice/dive with a 30 cuft "in case" I wish to add deco or any other dive that would require more gas.

The practice of using a pony as an excuse to not adhere to a gas plan is exactly the type of "bad" gas management that some here are talking about.

If you're going to have decompression, you need to know how much gas you will need and you need to plan for it. We treat dives that require staged decompression as an overhead environment and we employ other forms of redundancy. For example, we always have enough gas that we can complete our decompression with the total loss of any one gas. For example, if I do a dive that's is going to require staged decompression and I am only carrying one decompression gas then I have enough back gas reserved (with redundancy) that I can complete my decompression even if I lose all of my decompression gas.

 

[dive_lover88]

what about the" just enough air to reach the surface" tank?

 

[Buoyant1]

My "home" diving is done in quarries, and with the colder temps free flow is always a concern, one solution is to use a pony as your back up, but one good alternative that one of my instructors gave me was to use a tank with an "H" valve and put my octo on it's own first stage in case my primary free flows. Then I can shut off the offending reg, and still have enough gas to get me safely out of my bad situation. The big thing is it's not another big piece of gear slung along.

Most of the guys I dive with are also using big tanks (120's) so we have plenty of gas for the duration.

Just another alternative!

 

[The Horn]

The practice of using a pony as an excuse to not adhere to a gas plan is exactly the type of "bad" gas management that some here are talking about.

If you're going to have decompression, you need to know how much gas you will need and you need to plan for it. We treat dives that require staged decompression as an overhead environment and we employ other forms of redundancy. For example, we always have enough gas that we can complete our decompression with the total loss of any one gas. For example, if I do a dive that's is going to require staged decompression and I am only carrying one decompression gas then I have enough back gas reserved (with redundancy) that I can complete my decompression even if I lose all of my decompression gas.

You missed the point. I'm not intending to just go into a deco dive. IF I wish to pursue a more tech dive (after training etc, not the dive I'm currently on) then I'm used to carrying the extra tank, hence more comfortable etc.

The extra air is a safety margine. You have it, if you don't, ah well.

If someone wants to carry one, go for it. Most of the people talking about it being unnecesssary or a symbol of bad gas managment have no idea what they are talking about :shakehead

 

[MikeFerrara]

You missed the point. I'm not intending to just go into a deco dive. IF I wish to pursue a more tech dive (after training etc, not the dive I'm currently on) then I'm used to carrying the extra tank, hence more comfortable etc.

The extra air is a safety margine. You have it, if you don't, ah well.

If someone wants to carry one, go for it. Most of the people talking about it being unnecesssary or a symbol of bad gas managment have no idea what they are talking about :shakehead

I think you might be missing the point. "Extra gas" is a great idea. Redundancy is also a great idea. Extra gas and redundancy in the form of the, usually very small, tanks divers use as pony bottles, don't even come close to solving some of the problems that inspire divers to use them in the first place.

Some examples... the very nature of a pony bottle, stage or decompression cylinder (no redundancy, the way they are carried ect) make them more prone to damage or loss than back gas. So...they make a poor backup.

From a gas planning stand point, our reserve gas needs to be sufficient to get us and a buddy to the surface. When I dive stages, I breath the stage gas first and keep my reserve gas on my back where I have some redundancy. On some dives we even dive only using the stage gas and reserve ALL of our back gas.

The way they are configured can also cause problems. A third reg pinned to your body is a configuration night mare and more than one diver has died because they grabbed the wrong one and breathed their pony empty not realizing what was going on.

Divers often carry them such that the valves aren't accessibly. If the valve is on and you can't get to the valve and the reg isn't in your mouth it's more prone to free flows or other loss. What about the SPG? Can you see that?

If it's carried with the reg/hose stowed and the valve off, it's not a very readily deployable emergency source is it? Still, that's how we carry stage and decompression tanks in an effort to NOT lose that gas.

If a pony is symbolic of anything, it's usually that the diver has started doing dives that is pushing it for the training and equipment that they have. Once they get a little more of both, they usually realize that they don't need pony bottles.

The OP asked about non-tech divers using pony bottles. As others have pointed out, it's usually non-tech divers who do use them. It's also non-tech divers who have less training in gas manegement and equipment configuration. From that perspective, I think you're right in that someone here doesn't know what they're talking about. I'm just not sure that you've correctly identified just who that is.

 

[Meng_Tze]

In open water it may not be desirable nor safe to immediately surface. You may need to get back to the anchor line. Also running 3rds presupposes that after an emergency occurs the sac rates will stay the same.

If my RB is 1500psi and I have used 1000psi outbound and hit an emergency we now only have 250psi to make it back to the starting point.

In open water rules of 1/2's if it is desireable to get back to the start point, but not absolutely needed. Rule of 1/3's if you HAVE to get back to the start point (i.e a virtual overhead).


In your scenario you are not running rule of 1/3's.....or at least not running by the rules... see a previous post.

3000 PSI in tank. You decide to have 1500 in RB: 3000-1500 = 1500 usable.
1/3 of 1500= 500.

So you go in and use 500 psi gas untill the spg shows 3000-500=2500
you turn the dive at 2500. If at this point you have a total OOG and both divers NEED to go back to the point of entry, you have ample gas left. 500 for you, 500 for buddy equals 1000. This example is based on your numbers above, on how I would do it, but make sure YOU understand what this means to you and do not copy blindly.

And on top of that:
2500-1000= 1500 in 'extra reserve'. How much you need/want in reserve is a personal choice.


Gas planning is only sucessful if done properly and dives are run against that plan.

 

[xiSkiGuy]

If a pony is symbolic of anything, it's usually that the diver has started doing dives that is pushing it for the training and equipment that they have. Once they get a little more of both, they usually realize that they don't need pony bottles.

Well said!

 

[Jason B]

You make a nice attempt at a definition but do you know the real difference between a stage and pony? ..... application.

Did you even read my post? Maybe I didn't use 1000 words to answer, but the answer is sure there.