How many line markers do you carry?

[Manatee Diver]

...or for when I dive with someone who has no clue what a rem is and can’t seem to understand them (yes it happens you’d be surprised).

I was going to Olsen Bypass, before the dive, I explained to the person I was diving with, someone I had dove with a few times, what a REM is, how to use them, and why I am using them vs arrows/cookies. I dropped REMs for both jumps, but since he never used one before I had to indicate which direction at both REMs.

Difference in training I supposed, I was taught to look at the jump placement and if I didn't like the navigation aspect to place a personal marker. But I guess not everyone was taught that.

 

[PfcAJ]

Tangential question... Is it necessary to carry anything but REMs anymore? This is an honest question, not rhetorical.

I don’t see any advantage to REMs over arrows and cookies. But I do see some disadvantages.

 

[rjack321]

other than carrying one or two arrows for things like lost line/buddy there’s no need to carry anything other than rems if you like rems. The only reason I carry cookies is the rems I have are from Mexico so made for white line. They can be harder to get onto gold line if the gold line is brand new amd thick. So I carry a couple cookies to be safe or for when I dive with someone who has no clue what a rem is and can’t seem to understand them (yes it happens you’d be surprised). I could easily carry only rems and one arrow. I will say that I haven’t used an arrow since cave classes. I don’t do exploration and have been lucky to not lose the line or my buddy. I’m firmly in the camp that arrows should only be used in very specific instances/emergencies. For my wife and I no arrows would be fine because she understands my personal directionality to my rems. But I still carry an arrow just in case of emergency when she may be under pressure and an arrow would make immediate sense. If I’m diving with anybody else I would never use a rem in place of an arrow in an emergency.

Agree 100%
Catching the line on a real lost line incident you should be placing an arrow. Even if the direction of exit is wrong (without flow you may very well guess wrong) the arrow is unequivocal and when/if you discover your mistake and return to it in a brown out there won't be any doubt about where you are and your correct exit.

Also lost buddy incidents where you search, don't find your buddy, and leave the safety spool and arrow.

 

[rddvet]

I don’t see any advantage to REMs over arrows and cookies. But I do see some disadvantages.

I’m interested to hear what the disadvantages are

Agree 100%
Catching the line on a real lost line incident you should be placing an arrow. Even if the direction of exit is wrong (without flow you may very well guess wrong) the arrow is unequivocal and when/if you discover your mistake and return to it in a brown out there won't be any doubt about where you are and your correct exit.

Also lost buddy incidents where you search, don't find your buddy, and leave the safety spool and arrow.

I was never taught to leave a spool. Always either a light or a wet note page

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

A REM should be physically marked in a unique way that can be easily understood when you look at it and when you and a dive buddy are in a zero visibility situation. IMO - if you haven’t done that then you should be using cookies and arrows.

 

[rddvet]

A REM should be physically marked in a unique way that can be easily understood when you look at it and when you and a dive buddy are in a zero visibility situation. IMO - if you haven’t done that then you should be using cookies and arrows.

mine are uniquely marked but I don’t understand if they’re not why move to cookies. A rem is no different than a cookie unless it’s specifically used in a way that shows the user direction such as marking. An unmarked rem or a cookie should be the same. Bil Philips developed specifically so they can be directional to the user (but don’t have to be) but non directional to anyone that comes across them. IMO a cookie and rem are interchangeable except a rem can give more information if the user chooses it to.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

Typically people use cookies and arrows - or rems. But not both. That’s why I said that.

 

[rjack321]

I’m interested to hear what the disadvantages are



I was never taught to leave a spool. Always either a light or a wet note page

If you do a lost diver search you place an arrow towards your known exit. To hell with the system arrows this is a dire emergency.

Assuming you fail to find them in the silt bomb:

Leave your safety line running into where they last disappeared. Leave your arrow that it's tied into. Leave all jumps previously laid, leave your primary. All lines are left. Never pull any lines if there is a diver missing in the system anywhere. (BTW a couple years ago a woman in MX got lost, her instructor looked for her, assumed she exited, pulled the lines, she died.)

If you have time/gas, attach a backup light pointing into the cave on the safety line (a light they will see if exiting on your safety line towards the established mainline)

Leaving a note is ok - if it can even be read which in lost diver situations can go both ways. If no note or the vis is completely blown you can place an extra exit arrow on the exit side of your safety spool line.

 

[rjack321]

mine are uniquely marked but I don’t understand if they’re not why move to cookies. A rem is no different than a cookie unless it’s specifically used in a way that shows the user direction such as marking. An unmarked rem or a cookie should be the same. Bil Philips developed specifically so they can be directional to the user (but don’t have to be) but non directional to anyone that comes across them. IMO a cookie and rem are interchangeable except a rem can give more information if the user chooses it to.

The REM is always directional to the user. If you don't treat it as a personal arrow 100% of the time you are going to have problems.

 

[karstdvr]

If you do a lost diver search you place an arrow towards your known exit. To hell with the system arrows this is a dire emergency.

.

Yikes, that has the potential of putting other people in danger. This is one of the contributing causes to the double fatality in Madison.