How many line markers do you carry?
- Thread starter jlcnuke
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I agree with what you say,but there is so much variability being taught in putting in line arrows, that perhaps a REM is the best choice. The prevailing thought has been line arrows point to the closest exit.but you have people being taught things like arrows point to my exit, they point in my direction of travel, it is okay for them to contradict system line arrows because they have been personalized etc etc.
In Mexico - permanent arrows are slightly larger than personal arrows, (Not sure what happens in Florida caves - haven’t been there yet). As a cave diver and a stage cave diver I can easily be far enough in a cave and have permanent arrows pointing the opposite direction of my exit. I would much rather have a personalized REM to watch for and to rely on when I’m exiting. It is far more obvious - and of course has a completely different feel if I would be exiting in zero vis. I have a bungee of personalized arrows and cookies and another of Rems. I can use either one, but i much prefer rems.
J-Vo
Contributor
Peacock. I was leading so tie off REM and attendance REM at every jump. Our instructor would not let us tie off to the jump arrows for the class.
Makes sense. I misread it as you were tying off an unused spool to the line ike you would a backup light.
I can see that. I think for people who dive them regularly and were properly trained how to use them they're neither subtle nor definitive. But I generally dive with the same few people that have a very good understanding of what REMs are meant to mean. If diving with someone I don't know I will discuss the REMs, but will use cookies instead so there's no ambiguity if they aren't familiar.
I had a long talk with Bil a few years before he passed away and he gave a buddy and I a long explanation on how he developed REMs to be used. I find some of the details have been lost in training, probably because there are instructors that don't understand them.
It is nice if you have some cave line arrows that are larger to indicate permanent, or different color etc,but in a lights out/silt emergency, or air share scenario, where adrenalin is an issue, are you going to stop and determine these nuances? I have experienced a couple geological events in caves, where they were completely blown out all the way to the cavern, and at this point my exit is slower, so time equals air. Touching a line arrow and knowing my navigation is correct, is a good feeling,but having to spend time and feel each arrow for an ambiguous size, means a much slower exit. Simple enough, line arrows point the way out on a continuous line, and cookies, REMs, clothes pins can be used for all of the above.
It is nice if you have some cave line arrows that are larger to indicate permanent, or different color etc,but in a lights out/silt emergency, or air share scenario, where adrenalin is an issue, are you going to stop and determine these nuances?
I agree. Thats why I prefer REMS.
But all of that is a personal choice. Cookies - arrows - rems - they all work. They all need to be physically personalized. People learn on cookies and arrows. And if they choose - they move to rems.
I agree. Thats why I prefer REMS.
But all of that is a personal choice. Cookies - arrows - rems - they all work. They all need to be physically personalized. People learn on cookies and arrows. And if they choose - they move to rems.
Even physically personalizing line arrows has the same result. If someone has notches, holes etc on their line arrows that is great,but in a lights out/silt out emergency I have to stop and take the time to feel that line arrow for something unique, which is costing me time. Cookies, REMs, and clothes pins have a significant tactile difference ,such that when I encounter them I can rule them out quickly, and continue my rapid exit.
Just some thoughts on REMs v arrows...
For most people using REMS the larger end points to their exit. For some people the smaller end points to their exit. It’s a personal marker so should be disregarded by other teams, right? In zero visibility this could be problematic. I know many people also have tactile modifications to their markers but how distinguishable are they really?
I encountered REMs with the large end facing into the cave on a blindfold exit during a training dive. I wasn’t using REMs and I was already on the main line and close to the exit so it didn’t mess me up. Later we chatted with the other team and he had a Superman logo on the larger side and stated that to his team this meant that “you must be Superman if you wanna go that way”.
So I’m imagining a situation where you and your buddy jump off a REM and then another team puts in another jump with the larger end facing the opposite direction, encountering that in zero vis or if you somehow ended up on the other teams line would be much more confusing then if you had jumped off an arrow.
For most people using REMS the larger end points to their exit. For some people the smaller end points to their exit. It’s a personal marker so should be disregarded by other teams, right? In zero visibility this could be problematic. I know many people also have tactile modifications to their markers but how distinguishable are they really?
I encountered REMs with the large end facing into the cave on a blindfold exit during a training dive. I wasn’t using REMs and I was already on the main line and close to the exit so it didn’t mess me up. Later we chatted with the other team and he had a Superman logo on the larger side and stated that to his team this meant that “you must be Superman if you wanna go that way”.
So I’m imagining a situation where you and your buddy jump off a REM and then another team puts in another jump with the larger end facing the opposite direction, encountering that in zero vis or if you somehow ended up on the other teams line would be much more confusing then if you had jumped off an arrow.
Dominick Gheesling
Contributor
I carry:
6 white clothespins, marked with red/white reflective tape and initials (I had 7 but one is still in Harvey's on the Crystal Room Circuit. )
2 white cookies with initials and smiley faces (in the rare event that I run out of clothespins)
2 white line arrows with initials at the top and bottom of my pigtail (For emergency use)
6 white clothespins, marked with red/white reflective tape and initials (I had 7 but one is still in Harvey's on the Crystal Room Circuit. )
2 white cookies with initials and smiley faces (in the rare event that I run out of clothespins)
2 white line arrows with initials at the top and bottom of my pigtail (For emergency use)
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