How long should it take a liveaboard to fix their Nitrox?? (Dancer fleet)

[shmuggy]

It seems to me that they could get at least some Nitrox tanks so you don't have to do 100% air. That would show they are at least trying to mitigate a bad situation.

 

[cephalopod2]

Update: The Indonesian office emailed me back within 90 minutes. They said the boat was having minor problems (their words) with the Nitrox compressor and had had a technician come onboard a couple times, but it was still not working perfectly. It was scheduled for an overhaul at year end, but instead the owners decided to pull the entire unit early and send it to Surabaya – right in the middle of high season.

So there will be no membrane system on board. Bad news. But I still think partial pressure blending offers a simple and cost effective solution, if the boat is interested in providing Nitrox to its divers.

Once I started to check, I was surprised to discover how many high profile Indonesian dive ops blend their Nitrox. Lembeh Resort actually produces all its Nitrox with partial pressure blending – that’s a large number of tanks each day as nearly everyone dives at least 3 tanks a day, and most are diving Nitrox (I counted more than 10 divers diving 3 Nitrox dives one random day). Scuba Seraya also blends all of its Nitrox with partial pressure blending. If ops of this seniority and profile are blending, I suspect a large majority of the ops here are blending their Nitrox, so there must be many Bali residents with blending experience if somehow the Komodo Dancer doesn’t have anyone with blending experience on board. I can’t see how either procuring O2 or one trained blender could possibly be a problem.

Lembeh Resort said they can mix 12 EAN 32 tanks for each O2 cylinder they receive. There’s no way this trip is offering more than 36 dives over 10 days. So let’s say 3 EAN tanks = all 36 dives for 1 diver. There are many ops offering Nitrox in Labuan Bajo (LBJ), including one tech op, so either they have their own membrane systems or more likely they are buying O2 to mix. If the Dancer restocks O2 in LBJ it could do 1 diver’s entire cruise for 1.5 tanks of O2. 6 divers and 2 guides would be 12 tanks for the entire trip. And with the costs Lembeh Resort gave me, the total O2 costs for 1 diver comes out to only $30 more that the Komodo Dancer usually charges for Nitrox for this cruise.

Whether for customer service, guests’ happiness or safety, blending looks like a win-win-win proposition to me. Any extra costs could potentially be passed on to those who really want to dive with Nitrox. Sure you can’t provide Nitrox for all 16 divers but I highly doubt all 16 divers care deeply about Nitrox. Find out how many want Nitrox at a slightly higher cost and provide Nitrox for the first X divers that reply. Or ration the Nitrox a different way but at least both cruises would have Nitrox!

 

[Wookie]

Update: The Indonesian office emailed me back within 90 minutes. They said the boat was having minor problems (their words) with the Nitrox compressor and had had a technician come onboard a couple times, but it was still not working perfectly. It was scheduled for an overhaul at year end, but instead the owners decided to pull the entire unit early and send it to Surabaya – right in the middle of high season.

So there will be no membrane system on board. Bad news. But I still think partial pressure blending offers a simple and cost effective solution, if the boat is interested in providing Nitrox to its divers.

Once I started to check, I was surprised to discover how many high profile Indonesian dive ops blend their Nitrox. Lembeh Resort actually produces all its Nitrox with partial pressure blending – that’s a large number of tanks each day as nearly everyone dives at least 3 tanks a day, and most are diving Nitrox (I counted more than 10 divers diving 3 Nitrox dives one random day). Scuba Seraya also blends all of its Nitrox with partial pressure blending. If ops of this seniority and profile are blending, I suspect a large majority of the ops here are blending their Nitrox, so there must be many Bali residents with blending experience if somehow the Komodo Dancer doesn’t have anyone with blending experience on board. I can’t see how either procuring O2 or one trained blender could possibly be a problem.

Lembeh Resort said they can mix 12 EAN 32 tanks for each O2 cylinder they receive. There’s no way this trip is offering more than 36 dives over 10 days. So let’s say 3 EAN tanks = all 36 dives for 1 diver. There are many ops offering Nitrox in Labuan Bajo (LBJ), including one tech op, so either they have their own membrane systems or more likely they are buying O2 to mix. If the Dancer restocks O2 in LBJ it could do 1 diver’s entire cruise for 1.5 tanks of O2. 6 divers and 2 guides would be 12 tanks for the entire trip. And with the costs Lembeh Resort gave me, the total O2 costs for 1 diver comes out to only $30 more that the Komodo Dancer usually charges for Nitrox for this cruise.

Whether for customer service, guests’ happiness or safety, blending looks like a win-win-win proposition to me. Any extra costs could potentially be passed on to those who really want to dive with Nitrox. Sure you can’t provide Nitrox for all 16 divers but I highly doubt all 16 divers care deeply about Nitrox. Find out how many want Nitrox at a slightly higher cost and provide Nitrox for the first X divers that reply. Or ration the Nitrox a different way but at least both cruises would have Nitrox!

I don't mean to put a damper on your party, but the boat will not pull into a resort to get you nitrox, nor will they be partial pressure filling. I would be shocked if they did. For the record, I am able to haul 22 bottles of helium and 35 cylinders of Oxygen on my boat (more if needed, but it hasn't ever been), it takes 2 dedicated blending technicians, $25k worth of equipment, and a 16 hour day to keep up with 12 trimix divers making 2 dives per day (albeit they are 2 1/2 hour dives). What you are asking for is just too much and will disrupt the flow of the trip. I know you spent a lot of money, and I know you want it the way you were told you were going to get it. It's all about meeting expectations. I don't know what could be wrong with their system that would require the whole unit to be sent back to the repair shop, but that seems kind of silly to me. I've had a nitrox membrane installed since 1999 and I've had one membrane go south ($4,000, plus $250 fedex) and the heater controller go Tango Uniform (in stock in Houston, but that's Houston. I bought 2 of them). The other potential is a failed low pressure compressor, but that should be able to be bought anywhere.

Anyway, with the massive disruption to their schedule and manning, I'd change my expectations and prepare for air. Anything they do above and beyond will be a pleasant surprise.

 

[mathauck0814]

I was surprised to discover how many high profile Indonesian dive ops blend their Nitrox. Lembeh Resort actually produces all its Nitrox with partial pressure blending – that’s a large number of tanks each day as nearly everyone dives at least 3 tanks a day, and most are diving Nitrox (I counted more than 10 divers diving 3 Nitrox dives one random day). Scuba Seraya also blends all of its Nitrox with partial pressure blending. If ops of this seniority and profile are blending, I suspect a large majority of the ops here are blending their Nitrox, so there must be many Bali residents with blending experience if somehow the Komodo Dancer doesn’t have anyone with blending experience on board. I can’t see how either procuring O2 or one trained blender could possibly be a problem.

Just because they're partial pressure blending doesn't mean that they're mixing each individual tank. All it means is that they're running pure O2 into their large nitrox banks and then topping it up with their compressor. When it comes time to fill a divers' tank they are likely just decanting. This is a more reasonable system for a land based operation than a boat based one due to the number and size of storage banks. On a boat they would have to blend each individual tank. The amount of time and energy involved makes this a non-starter. That's why you're not going to get nitrox on this trip.

Odds are there's one guy who blends it every few days at the land based resort when the banks run down. On the boat they'd need a small army to fill tanks during surface intervals/several times per day.

All in all, I'd say you're grossly overreacting.

---------- Post added July 31st, 2013 at 08:59 AM ----------

If the Dancer restocks O2 in LBJ it could do 1 diver’s entire cruise for 1.5 tanks of O2. 6 divers and 2 guides would be 12 tanks for the entire trip. And with the costs Lembeh Resort gave me, the total O2 costs for 1 diver comes out to only $30 more that the Komodo Dancer usually charges for Nitrox for this cruise.

I feel like you've either never seen an oxygen storage bottle or you've never been on a boat. Are you really proposing that they could bring 12 oxygen bottles on board? Where would you propose to find space for so many tanks in addition to the regular load on a LAB trip?

 

[Wookie]

Just because they're partial pressure blending doesn't mean that they're mixing each individual tank. All it means is that they're running pure O2 into their large nitrox banks and then topping it up with their compressor. When it comes time to fill a divers' tank they are likely just decanting. This is a more reasonable system for a land based operation than a boat based one due to the number and size of storage banks.

Additionally, many ops have a blending stick and therefore blend through their compressor. A membrane system costs upwards of $25k, a stick can be made with $15 worth of parts. A smart solenoid to shut off the flow of O2 when the compressor shuts down and you have a hands off nitrox system that doesn't have to be babysat. PP blending is time and labor intensive. I can't imagine anyone who is mixing 30 cylinders a day is PP blending.

 

[mathauck0814]

Additionally, many ops have a blending stick and therefore blend through their compressor. A membrane system costs upwards of $25k, a stick can be made with $15 worth of parts. A smart solenoid to shut off the flow of O2 when the compressor shuts down and you have a hands off nitrox system that doesn't have to be babysat. PP blending is time and labor intensive. I can't imagine anyone who is mixing 30 cylinders a day is PP blending.

Right - our local day boat operation in SD uses a stick to do continuous blending. The OP suggested that the land based operations were doing PP blending and thus the boat based operations should be able to get the parts and the skillset. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of any of these places. My post was merely to point out that even if they were doing PP blending, the way that a land based operation would do it wouldn't be feasible for a boat based operation due to space constraints for bank bottles.

I couldn't imagine any boat operation that would be willing to start rearranging their gas system for a temporary blending stick.

 

[cephalopod2]

I don't mean to put a damper on your party, but the boat will not pull into a resort to get you nitrox

I cited the resorts to demonstrate there are plenty of land-based ops here filling an equivalent number of tanks on the same tight daily schedule (multiple divers doing 3-4 dives per day). I was never suggested the liveaboard visit a resort.

mathauck0814 I just dove another Indo phinisi in March that was sitting with about 20 alum 80s underneath its camera room tables. The stack of 11 O2 cylinders at the resort I am presently at could easily fit in that same space. This boat is even larger, different config.

The dive mgrs at both resorts I named both told me they use "partial pressure blending". I did not know there were multiple types of PPB. My OP had asked what was possible and it was suggested that PPB would be possible. Since there are LOBs that use PPB I did not see why this LOB could not, unless there is tonnes of additional equipment you folks are suggesting they will not have.

 

[Shasta_man]

I seems only win-win for you and whoever else might use this. With the work and effort required, it also seems like it would be more than a small cost increase to implement.