How Long For Freeflow To Empty Tank?

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ianr33:
How long would it take for a freeflowing regulator to empty an AL 80 at the surface?

How much less would this time be at ,say, 5ATM (132 feet??)

Most K valves deliver between 1000 and 1100 litres per min wide open. Most regs can match or better this.

An AL80 has an internal volume of about 11 litres. When full that's about 2200 litres of air.

Sooooo.... 2200/1100 gives you about 2 minutes at the surface.

[edit: removed nonsense]

R..
 
To really irritate the mathematicians out there:

Figure in Open Water you're going to start to ascend at 30'/min as soon as the freeflow begins. So you're not talking about a freeflow at 5ATA, you're talking about a freeflow at decreasing ATAs.

I bring it up because I can't do math and I'm jealous of those who can.
 
saying - you would not make it to the surface at that rate, at least on a single tank. even at 60'/min, you'd drown - even if you didn't stop to do the math.

Since I suck at physics, I'm basing calculations on Diver0001's assumptions of 1100 liters per minute at the surface. Also I am assuming you ascend at 60' / min. If you start at only 61', blowing from a full tank, by the time you get to 60', you'll have blown 52.22 liters ((61'/33')+1)*(1100 ltr/60 sec)). To move from 60' to 59', you'll use 51.67 liters ((60'/33')+1)*(1100 ltr/60 sec)). Keep adding up those liters and you just break the surface with your last breath - and go straight into the chamber for missing your safety stop
;-)
 
Um... I'm just about to go to sleep but I can't see what SAC rate has to do with the emptying speed of a free flowing tank...

Just because YOU use gas 5 times faster at 130 fsw doesn't have any bearing on how fast your tank will drain in a freeflow situation.

The gas INSIDE the tank is not affected by OUTSIDE pressure in the slightest untill you go so deep that the tank crushes or deforms. I don't know if that's even possible on earth... Maybe on Jupiter?

I'm just not seeing how gas 'density' in the tank is affected by depth at all... Temperature plays a role in here as well but it would be trivialy small in this case.

Assumptions:
1: tank 'X' drains in 120 seconds while at the surface (out of the water) with full-on catastrophic freeflow from 2nd stage.

2: Said regulator had the intermediate pressure set to 150 psi on flow bench relatively recently so it should still be quite close to that setting (one hopes :wink: ).

3: intermediate pressure at depth should STILL be 150 PSI + ambient pressure in that properly serviced regulater... The pressure difference between what's coming out of the 1st stage low-pressure port and the outside world should ALWAYS be very close to 150 PSI untill the tank is almost empty.

Geeze, I had to go back and reread to remember where I was going with all this... :wink:

I can see the tank draining somewhat faster at depth since the reg would allow a higher volume of gas per second to flow out the low-pressure port because of the higher ambient pressure added to the base 150 PSI. On the flip side, that same ambient pressure will help to push back on that escaping gas. Also, water being more viscous than air may help slow down the escaping gas a bit as well (not sure on that though as I really am not familiar with the science of fluid dynamics).

I'm absolutely sure that it would NOT drain 5 times as fast as at the surface.
 
Your tank will not run dry if you kink your second stages hose and allow air through only as you need it. This way a freeflow can be safely managed until you reach the surface using a proper asent rate.
 
SwimJim:
Your tank will not run dry if you kink your second stages hose and allow air through only as you need it. This way a freeflow can be safely managed until you reach the surface using a proper asent rate.

That's true if your 2nd stage is freeflowing. If your 1st stage is causing the problem you'll just pop a hose.

R..
 
MikeFerrara:
Just look at it based on fluid flow principals.
The flow out of the tank is dependant on the pressure differenntial and the resistance to flow inbetween. All a reg can do is add resistance to flow from the inside of the tank to the outside world.
Whew!
Alright class, listen up...
There are a couple of factors here, but y'all are all trying to make it too complicated, and you have one bad data point and some misplaced ideas about fluid dynamics from which the rest is flowing. Regardless of what someone remembers, you cannot empty a full 72 through a standard "K" valve in 30 seconds. Not at the surface, not at any recreational diving depth.
As Mike says, flow rate is dependent on pressure differential and flow restriction. Forget the regulator... a "perfect" regulator would provide zero resistance to the gas flow through it and therefore allow flow to proceed at its maximum possible rate as though it weren't there at all. So the two pressures that create the ultimate differential are tank pressure and ambient pressure, and maximum possible flow rate (with an extremely efficient, high performance regulator) actually decreases with depth because the pressure differential between the tank pressure and the ambient pressure decreases. (Before you get your brain in a knot on that one, just think 200 ATM ambient pressure - about 2000 M or 6600 feet deep - at that depth a standard aluminum 80 would never empty (or already be empty, depending on your point of view) because there would be no pressure differential across which the gas could flow; indeed, if you went deeper then opening the tank valve would allow water to flow into the tank, not gas to flow out)
So if you want to see what the worst case could be, just open a tank valve wide open and see how long it takes to empty. At depth it'll take a little longer for the same amount of gas to escape as it does on the surface. But at normal diving depths, the dropoff in pressure differential is very small compared to the flow restriction provided by the valve; at the surface a tank filled to 3000 psig has a 3000 psi "fall" for the gas to drop through the K valve, and taking that tank to 100 feet only reduces the "height" of the fall by 45 psi, and the pressure differential is still 2955 psi initially. It is the restriction of the "K" valve that for all intents and purposes is the limiting factor here, and opening a valve wide open on the surface will give you a very close approximation of how much time you'll have at any recreational diving depth.
Rick
 
Excellent point Rick. One thing to keep in mind though.... If that tank is upright at 2000M, it'll empty as fast as it can fill with water... Maybe you math/physics guys can play around with that for awhile...

Cheers,
James
 
I'd estimate it would take two minutes to empty an AL 80 at the surface with a high performance reg.

When I bled my tanks down for winter storage this year (al80 at the surface) I opened valves (no restrictions from my reg). They were not fully open but were still blowing much more air than a freeflowing reg does and it took longer than 2 minutes to bleed them down to 300psi. ... more like 5 to 10 minutes.
 
on the Deco Stop where someone (Curt B?) took a cylinder to depth and actually timed how long it took to empty it...tried some searches, but couldn't find it...anyone else remember it?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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