How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[MauiScubaSteve]

This fellow's been teaching for more than 30 years in our area, and runs some of the best classes I've seen anywhere (he's PADI, BTW). It was from him I learned the method of progression I mentioned earlier. In his class, all pool skills are demonstrated off the bottom, and by the end of the confined water sessions, all students are expected to be performing those skills off the bottom.

It was during those classes that I discovered that training OW students to do skills while hovering isn't really any more difficult than training them on their knees ... it's simply a matter of setting expectations.

As is usual for SB, many of us seem to be typing tangentially.

When I take 4-8 students into confined water the first time, I have often under weighted them so much that I end up giving away much of my necessary weight. My demonstrations are usually done at the very bottom of my lung, with the smallest breath possible, trying to keep most of my hair under water.

The students are the ones I have firmly planted.

For the most part, only the resorts have "pools" at their disposal here in Hawaii, and very few of those have proper depths for scuba training. I now use 2 dive sites each (South and West Maui) where the shallows just off the beach are the "confined water" locations.

At Makena Landing a 1-2 foot swell does not affect vis but the horizontal surge back and forth can exceed 10 feet if you hover. At Airport Beach the beach is steeper and a similar non vis impacting 1-2 foot swell moves us up and down as well when hovering.

Even 2 students at those sites usually takes some of my necessary weight. I often demonstrate "on the fly" during the bigger sets so students can try during the smaller sets, and then I may even have to physically limit their movement by grabbing the bottom left of their BC or their HP hose.

IMHO, over weighting and firmly planting for initial skills does not necessarily mean over weighted and firmly planted, and the learning is not necessarily degraded like many on SB seem to propagandize. Many very good divers started over weighted (by some peoples standards) and firmly planted for all the skills, not just the initial skills.

As I said before; I think Instructors and Agency Standards get blamed far more than is deserved. The general human public is a sad prospective student source.

Many of the internet sages here on SB seem to pretty much hand pick their students, and then brag about their final results, after 50 hours of instruction. Try working for an employer who takes all comers in a warm water resort area, with something like the worldwide average instructional time; you might find that you really don't know what transpires for the vast majority of worldwide divers/instructors.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I have to tell you that there is no phrase I hate more than "if it's not broke, why fix it?" It implies that the speaker has achieved perfection in what he does.

You take it as implying the speaker (or typist) thinks they have achieved perfection, but the simple fact is we rarely seem to know what a speaker/typist means with the words and sentences typed even after pages of repetitive discussion (or years), much less what they think.

It sounds like when you hear or see that phrase your mind has problems considering any possibility other than the one you support.

As for the limited time issue, our experience is that we are reaching that point in less time than it used to take, primarily because many of the later skills go so fast. Fin pivoting and hovering take almost no time, and they used to be major time bottlenecks.

Perhaps I had better training in teaching the fin pivot and hovering, because I have never found those skills to be a bottleneck. I personally can't see those skills ever taking much time. Most of the time I just tell the boys that the girls are usually better at it, with the girls listening, and you could record those contests to train DM's.

I have been in extensive discussion with the key people from the PADI training department in the past few months. Unless I am completely fooled by what I have been told so far, you will see changes in the next year or so. In the last talks we had, the discussion centered around two approaches to instruction that will achieve the result of having students capable, buoyant swimmers who can do the critical skills in mid-water. One is the one I described above. The other is to start them on their knees and then quickly transition them to performance in a horizontal, neutral performance of the skill. (The person who wrote that said "in the same session."

That second one seems like "negotiation propaganda" to me. Kind of like the printed asking price of an item for sale on craigslist. They are "asking" for 50% of msrp but we all know similar are going for 20-25% msrp.

Personally I think there are plenty of other areas where change would make more improvement. I Personally think many "students capable, buoyant swimmers who can do the critical skills in mid-water" are produced starting with initial skills firmly planted on knees and the bad diving John Q newb's that you all point to as reason for the changes will still be bad divers even after passing the "new" standards, because John Q. doesn't care if he dives well.

The only way I see to make all divers look like good divers is to have God chose the one's that get to learn scuba; only the most deserving shall scuba hence forth!

Even then there would probably have to be some lightning bolts frying a few blasphemous arm flapping roto-tillers, so the rest of us would maintain proper God fearing performance underwater. :zap:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

At Makena Landing a 1-2 foot swell does not affect vis but the horizontal surge back and forth can exceed 10 feet if you hover. At Airport Beach the beach is steeper and a similar non vis impacting 1-2 foot swell moves us up and down as well when hovering.

Even 2 students at those sites usually takes some of my necessary weight. I often demonstrate "on the fly" during the bigger sets so students can try during the smaller sets, and then I may even have to physically limit their movement by grabbing the bottom left of their BC or their HP hose.

IMHO, over weighting and firmly planting for initial skills does not necessarily mean over weighted and firmly planted, and the learning is not necessarily degraded like many on SB seem to propagandize. Many very good divers started over weighted (by some peoples standards) and firmly planted for all the skills, not just the initial skills.

Training in different environments often requires approaches that others, who don't training in those environments would not use. But my point wasn't that training in that manner is inherently bad ... it was that training someone to plant themselves makes it more difficult to learn and perform those same skills when NOT planted ... particularly if the NOT planted concept is never brought up as the ultimate goal. People learn best what they learn first ... and once ingrained, habits become hard to break. And like it or not ... mastery of diving skills is all about the habits you learn.

As I said before; I think Instructors and Agency Standards get blamed far more than is deserved. The general human public is a sad prospective student source.

I'm in complete agreement with your first statement, and in general disagreement with your second. People are generally pretty good at learning if they are given appropriate incentives to learn. When you start with the premise that learning a given skill in a certain way is "too hard for a beginner", it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Many of the internet sages here on SB seem to pretty much hand pick their students, and then brag about their final results, after 50 hours of instruction.

Actually I don't choose my students ... they choose me. I've never turned someone down to start a class ... I will take all comers. I HAVE failed to pass students who didn't appear to be motivated sufficiently to meet my standards. And I have ... on two occasions ... told student that they needed to go take swimming lessons first, then come back and see me ... neither one of them ever did.

My OW class probably isn't any longer than yours. Perhaps the only difference is that I will often provide the students with two or three additional dives during checkout. I'll admit that many instructors don't have that option, but I don't pay boat or access fees for shore dives, so all it costs me is a little extra time ... and I factor that into the price I charge for my class.

Try working for an employer who takes all comers in a warm water resort area, with something like the worldwide average instructional time; you might find that you really don't know what transpires for the vast majority of worldwide divers/instructors.

I've worked for shops ... I do know what transpires, and the pressures put on instructors to "just pass them" with as little time and expense as agency standards allow. That's the reason I don't currently work for a shop ... because the motivation for certifying a student becomes less about skills proficiency and more about making a profit. I think those priorities are upside down, and won't be a part of that business model.

And I'm not the least bit ashamed to say so ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

The only way I see to make all divers look like good divers is to have God chose the one's that get to learn scuba; only the most deserving shall scuba hence forth!

I am living proof that that is NOT TRUE. I was the worst student in my class (read my journal, if you don't believe me). I was the student you look at and sigh. I have eventually mastered the skills well enough to have technical and cave certs from fairly demanding instructors.

I have seen my husband teach classes for a shop (so no selection process in students AT ALL) and get almost everybody, by the end of the pool sessions, able to clear a mask in midwater, or share gas and swim around without losing buoyancy control. The students who were unable to meet that standard generally were unable because of anxiety problems, rather than skill issues.

And regarding the comment that the instructors who are teaching this way don't know what's going on in the "real world", why would you teach in an environment where you felt your ability to produce a safe, competent diver was compromised by the constraints set upon you?

I do agree that, if divers after certification simply don't care, they won't maintain skills or improve them. But "caring" is something an instructor can work to instill, and instructors and DMs can serve as superb models, if they want to. "Did you see how I did that? You can learn to do it like that, too!" When I finished my OW (and AOW, and several specialties) I had never seen somebody who could just sit in the water, unmoving . . . or someone who could swim back the same way he swam out, because he hadn't disturbed the bottom. You can't aspire to what you don't know exists.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

But my point wasn't that training in that manner is inherently bad ... it was that training someone to plant themselves makes it more difficult to learn and perform those same skills when NOT planted ... particularly if the NOT planted concept is never brought up as the ultimate goal. People learn best what they learn first ... and once ingrained, habits become hard to break. And like it or not ... mastery of diving skills is all about the habits you learn.

Again we are tangential, not parallel. You are of the opinion "that training someone to plant themselves makes it more difficult to learn and perform those same skills when NOT planted." I am of the opinion that for some students, or some instructors, or some gear, it may make it more difficult to learn and perform those same skills when NOT planted. I am unconvinced that absolute answers exist for OW training skills.

My employer uses Oceanic Alpha 8 second stage regs for every primary and alternate reg. A few years ago I bought two PX3/Alpa 8's ($129 shipped). I find that plastic body to be insufficient weight to sink the air in the hose, so when performing reg recovery the hose and reg are often "above" where they were when the reg was "lost."

If you are laying mostly horizontal on the bottom, getting your arm sweep up to where the hose/reg are is often a higher reach than a reasonable crawl stroke and not reasonable movement for most average humans. In a kneeling position (vertical body) the hose/reg is way more likely to be in the reasonable crawl movement of the average human.

During the future Alpha 8 certified dives, a tendency for the "neutrally buoyant" beginning diver to move to a more vertical body position while performing the recovery sweep significantly improves success when compared to a beginning diver who is attempting to make that recovery while staying horizontal.

Easier first success, less anxiety from the get go, easier to teach a less anxious student, higher chance of first attempt success in a true emergency as a certified diver.

If we go to standards requiring "tank lift / first stage hose end grab" there may be a higher percentage of first attempt success for new beginning divers, but significantly less average humans that can pass standards. Also, near the end of an AL80 tank attached to a Vest or BI BC, finding the bottom of the tank is not as easy for the horizontal beginning diver as for the beginning diver who tends to move to a vertical body position when reg recovering.

Now let's look at mask clearing; from a mostly horizontal on the bottom body position, imho getting the mask glass enough past vertical to completely clear water is quite an uncomfortable head lift for most average humans. A beginning diver who successfully learned first on knees and has a tendency to go vertical while clearing their mask seems like a diver who gets their mask cleared quicker and easier.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As I said before; I think Instructors and Agency Standards get blamed far more than is deserved. The general human public is a sad prospective student source.

I'm in complete agreement with your first statement, and in general disagreement with your second. People are generally pretty good at learning if they are given appropriate incentives to learn. When you start with the premise that learning a given skill in a certain way is "too hard for a beginner", it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My premise about the "sad prospective student source" is not that they will be hard to train or that they are bad at learning. I am saying that most humans really don't give a Flying F' about doing things properly, even after they have proved they can to receive certification.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I've worked for shops ... I do know what transpires, and the pressures put on instructors to "just pass them" with as little time and expense as agency standards allow. That's the reason I don't currently work for a shop ... because the motivation for certifying a student becomes less about skills proficiency and more about making a profit. I think those priorities are upside down, and won't be a part of that business model.

I've worked for three operators who run dive boats; only the first one was a dive shop in the traditional definition. The pressure from those employers is not to just pass the students, but bring them up to speed to make significant cavern dives, drift wall dives or deep wreck dives on their first certified boat trips. As far as I see, most of the working instructors at similar operations here in Hawaii are producing divers that not only survive those first boat trips but are also enjoying themselves and coming back for more.

I strive for new divers who do not make the certified divers in the boat dive group feel they are being shortchanged by having a new diver in the group, and I am nearly as happy with my success as my employer is.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

The only way I see to make all divers look like good divers is to have God chose the one's that get to learn scuba; only the most deserving shall scuba hence forth!

Even then there would probably have to be some lightning bolts frying a few blasphemous arm flapping roto-tillers, so the rest of us would maintain proper God fearing performance underwater. :zap:

I am living proof that that is NOT TRUE. I was the worst student in my class (read my journal, if you don't believe me). I was the student you look at and sigh. I have eventually mastered the skills well enough to have technical and cave certs from fairly demanding instructors.

Until I see some "lightning bolts frying the blasphemous" I remain the typical product of two geologists who decorated their homes with "billion" year old fossils.

If there was an all powerful God who could look into your soul (and your future) I believe you would have been found deserving. :kiss2:

My favorite George Carlin quote goes something like this; "If God is all powerful, can he make a boulder that is so large he himself can not lift it?"

 

[UaVaj]

I don't issue cards to students that aren't ready to dive without an instructor or DM. That's kind of the point of the SCUBA instructional system....

I've thought about it some more, and now I'm kind of irritated. There are instructors out there (search any "lousy instructor" thread) that make lousy divers because they figure that the lousy diver will dive with a DM or instructor once a year on vacation. The student/diver doesn't know any better because they are newly certified, and their lousy instructor told them at the end of class that they should dive with a DM or instructor "until they feel comfortable on their own". Now, a dive magazine writer is reinforcing that stand, planning an article to make sure folks know that they need to have a hand-holder with them for the first 25, 50, 100 whatever dives.

These folks show up at the dive operator thinking we'll do everything for them, from putting their gear together, to holding their hand and checking their gauges underwater. They don't understand when we expect them to be self sufficient, have their own save-a-dive kit, and be ready to jump in when the gate opens.

This article is nothing more than a reinforcement of the dumbing down of American divers and another example of the SCUBA industry shooting itself in the foot.

Unless I'm way off base and owe you an apology.

I have had one too many opportunities to dive with and/or observe other scuba divers who are clearly not ready to be diving (1) by themselves or (2) with a buddy.

Funny thing is: A year or so later and a bunch more dives logged. These folks are still alive and breathing.

Obviously scuba diving is not that dangerous or is it?



Truth of the matters is - if instructor made "absolutely" sure the student was compentent and 100% ready to dive by themself (with a buddy if needed) after graduation. 2/3 will FAIL open water. Then the instructor will be out of the job.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm in complete agreement with your first statement, and in general disagreement with your second. People are generally pretty good at learning if they are given appropriate incentives to learn. When you start with the premise that learning a given skill in a certain way is "too hard for a beginner", it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A little over a week ago, a mother and 11-year daughter were in my pool class. The daughter could barely pass both the float and swim requirements. She had very little confidence under water. The first skill (regulator recovery) was difficult for her because of that discomfort. He mother actually was worse at the skills than she was. Both improved rapidly during that first session, but the girl got sick and had to reschedule the rest of the work. They were assigned to a friend of mine who uses the same approach. They performed all the final skills confidently in mid water, without touching the bottom. It took no longer than a normal class.

Actually I don't choose my students ... they choose me.

Working as a do for a shop, I take whoever shows up. I once had a 58-year old woman who had had a double mastectomy earlier in the year, had a bad back, and (I didn't learn this until later) had never had her head fully under water until the first pool work.

If we go to standards requiring "tank lift / first stage hose end grab" there may be a higher percentage of first attempt success for new beginning divers, but significantly less average humans that can pass standards.

I have been through a lot of these discussions in the past, and there is something about them that amazes me. You have two groups of instructors:

1. Instructors who have taught students both ways, starting in the traditional approach on the knees and then switching to the horizontal technique.
2. Instructors who have taught only on the knees and who use their imagination to guess at what it must be like to teach in a horizontal position.

I am amazed that the second group believes their imagination of what it must be like is so much more accurate than what the first group sees with their own eyes.

When in a horizontal position, lifting the tank is not needed, and I have no clue why you think "less humans can pass the standard." In a horizontal position, the skill is ridiculously easy. In fact, the most likely problem they will encounter is reaching too far for the hose. It is usually just behind the ear.

Now let's look at mask clearing; from a mostly horizontal on the bottom body position, imho getting the mask glass enough past vertical to completely clear water is quite an uncomfortable head lift for most average humans. A beginning diver who successfully learned first on knees and has a tendency to go vertical while clearing their mask seems like a diver who gets their mask cleared quicker and easier.

Mask clearing is no more difficult to learn this way, and in fact is the key reason I started doing it this way. I was diving in Hawaii two years ago and saw a couple of very experienced divers (probably 500-600 logged dives) kneel on the coral to clear their masks. Last year I was doing my initial cavern training and a diver approached my instructor to ask about cave training. Later on we saw him in the open water near the cavern entrance as he knelt in the sand to clear his mask. People who learn to clear the mask in an upright position don't have to tip their heads at all, so many will never learn the skill needed to do it correctly.

My favorite George Carlin quote goes something like this; "If God is all powerful, can he make a boulder that is so large he himself can not lift it?"

BTW, this is a well known lesson in logic. You can see it in the very funny short story "Love is a Fallacy" by Max Schulman. The main character (whom I believe is Dobie Gillis for those old enough to remember that TV show) tries to teach his girl friend logic and uses this example in one of his lessons. It is an example of contradictory premises. If it is possible for there to be an all powerful force, it is not possible for there to be an immovable object.

"God-fearing" is one of the most misunderstood phrases in the English language. The phrase has been around since the middle ages, when the word "fear" meant something different from what it does today. In that context, it means to have a reverential awe for God--like a really healthy respect. When people were told that they should fear God, they were being told to give him proper respect--not quake in terror.