How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

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halemanō;5623638:
If it's not broke why fix it?
...
Why, with the limited time frame of the vast majority of intro or certification courses worldwide, would you not take full advantage of a successful "training wheels" approach that accomplishes the training goals in the typical short duration? :dontknow:
I have to tell you that there is no phrase I hate more than "if it's not broke, why fix it?" It implies that the speaker has achieved perfection in what he does. Nothing can ever be better. It's the great phrase to use when you want to avoid learning anything new. It is the phrase I heard over and over again when I was trying to bring new teaching methods to education--teachers would smugly say that what they were doing is the best that can possibly be done, all the evidence of the incompetence of our graduates notwithstanding. Imagine if the Wright brothers had had that attitude after that first flight at Kitty Hawk--airplanes would still be novelties making "successful" 100 yard flights.

First of all, when I say that my students are never firmly planted on their knees, I don't mean they are hovering in trim in the first pool dive. I go through several steps to get them comfortable in the water, and then I have them lying forward, their legs on the pool floor, in something resembling a fin pivot position. When you first really start to do it that way, it is a revelation. You realize that all the skills are performed differently that way. You realize that the process of doing skills on the knees is different from the process of doing them while horizontal. You next realize that it is actually easier for them to do most of the skills that way--talk about "training wheels" is misguided, for they have better training wheels when they are lying down than when they are kneeling.

By the fourth pool dive, my students are only touching the pool bottom accidentally. I tell them that they have the option of doing the last skills on the pool bottom if they wish, but it has been a while since any of my students (or the students of other instructors I know who follow the same approach) have done that. For the past few months, all my students have done the last skills (no mask swim/replacement, weight belt removal/replacement, and scuba unit removal/replacement in mid water.

As for the limited time issue, our experience is that we are reaching that point in less time than it used to take, primarily because many of the later skills go so fast. Fin pivoting and hovering take almost no time, and they used to be major time bottlenecks.

I have been in extensive discussion with the key people from the PADI training department in the past few months. Unless I am completely fooled by what I have been told so far, you will see changes in the next year or so. In the last talks we had, the discussion centered around two approaches to instruction that will achieve the result of having students capable, buoyant swimmers who can do the critical skills in mid-water. One is the one I described above. The other is to start them on their knees and then quickly transition them to performance in a horizontal, neutral performance of the skill. (The person who wrote that said "in the same session."
 
Your actual question has no answer, since the divers have no frame of reference to know if they're ready.

If you want a real article you might want to discuss how an "Open Water" certification can mean anything from "Can safely dive with just a buddy and no supervision" to "If nobody panics it will be a miracle"

If you take the requirements as they're written and were originally intended, any OW diver should be able to grab a buddy and safely dive with no professional supervision.

If you take the requirements as they're actually implemented, an OW diver could have just enough training to be able to correctly answer the written exam and demonstrate some skills for an instructor without drowning, or could be ready to jump off the end of the boat, have a great dive and come back with his/her buddy, a big smile and not out of air.

Which way it goes depends almost entirely on who did the training and how long it's been.

flots

Hey there. I love this: "an "Open Water" certification can mean anything from "Can safely dive with just a buddy and no supervision" to "If nobody panics it will be a miracle" Your observations are very descriptive. May I quote you? If so, can you please provide me with your name and contact information? You can mail it to briannapstevens@yahoo.com. I thank you kindly. --Brianna
 
I could actually see a lovely series . . . highlighting popular Southern California dive sites, whether they are done from shore or from a boat, and discussing the particular skills that might be necessary or desirable to have to do those sites, and when those skills might be employed.

For example, a piece on Vet's Park could talk about the ability to evaluate surf conditions, techniques for surf entry, and using natural navigation to return to your entry point.

A piece on the Catalina Dive Park could talk about how to get on the steps at the end of the dive (and how to evaluate the difficulty you'll face in doing it) and the effect of tides on the ease of entry and exit.

An article on the oil rigs could talk about managing live boat entries and exits, including how to get ready efficiently on the boat, and safety aspects of reboarding.

I could see a good series of articles here, all aimed at safety and education, but also highlighting fun diving which is accessible to new or a little more seasoned divers in SoCal.

Indeed, California Diver is already doing this. Check out my article in the December issue on diving Monastery Beach in Carmel, CA. It includes a box of tips on entering and exiting the water there, as well as a host of safety tips. It also admonishes divers not to dive there unless accompanied by an experienced diver who has dived Monastery before and who can "read" the conditions. Hope you like it, and I look forward to more great suggestions!
 
halemanō;5623803:
because my students and I first showed "mastery" of "calmly settling to the bottom."

Have lead, will sink. :dontknow:

Even if we were using steel tanks, no lead and were 2-3 lbs too light for a 500 psi, 15' safety stop, at ~1,800 psi we would have still been negative enough to sink (50' depth).

Which you knew when you typed that crack, didn't you?
 
You wrote in a previous post "in my opinion there are numerous times when kneeling is very appropriate during a dive."

Since this thread was about newly certified divers, their safety, their training, and since I consider myself a beginner, I was wondering why and when it would be a good idea to kneel on the bottom to solve a problem. The only one I could think of was to rest/stop in a current if it's the best solution (sandy bottom and no structure to hide behind).

You've given me two other reasons : photography and observation of marine life.

Not what I had in mind.

I was steering my "skills on knees" discussion towards claims "it's" causing problem solving to often be done in a more vertical body position, with the resulting lowering of visibility being a main safety issue. That is because "that" is what I've gleaned from other threads going down that path. For me the "numerous time kneeling is appropriate" is a separate line of discussion. That is why I previously posted this;

halemanō;5623315:
When I typed "a bottom that can cause loss of visibility" I made it a separate paragraph from the previous paragraph where I typed the word "knees."
 
Yes, there are regulations in the Marine Park of Cozumel.
Are you asking out of curiousity or making a point ? I don't see how it relates to our conversation.

Well, I mentioned that I would dive/shoot similarly to the photographer you watched, when in "our" Marine Park," so I'm kind of wondering if you have seen said photographer shoot at non regulated dive sites where there are appropriate non-living areas one could settle to the bottom to shoot a photograph. :dontknow:
 
halemanō;5623803:
The opinion I am trying to express is that I see little evidence "initial skills firmly planted" has any relationship to divers "needing to kneel" to solve a dive problem as a certified diver.

As a student, it sure helps to know you CAN do the skills without kneeling. Not just intellectually but by having actually done them at least once in open water. Sets your mind at ease.

AFAIS, when most of us type "initial skills" we are talking about the beginning of the first Confined Water session. AFAIC, the skills performed on the OW dives would be spoken of just as "skills."
 

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