How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[MauiScubaSteve]

What "numerous times" are you referring too ? Can you please elaborate and give specific examples ?

This is what I have handy for specific examples, but I could list a lot of less specific situations as well;



the instructions for this dive are to "stay firmly planted on the bottom"



Draeger Dolphin students and instructor getting teeth cleaned by shrimp, er I mean practicing mouthpiece shutoff



when in Rome.....



knelt for over a half an hour to get this shot



quit hiding/fleeing/color-changing after I knelt down​

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

And have you tried teaching any other way? If not, then how valid IS your opinion?

If it's not broke why fix it?

I spent three years successfully leading thousands of neutrally buoyant Intro divers to the Ulua turtle cleaning station after a 45 minute pool session, starting out firmly planted.

​

Those are all intro divers on their first ocean dive after 45 minutes in an 8' deep hotel pool. In the last one, "mainland" certified dad is perhaps making contact with the reef.

I want the highest rate of success on the initial skill attempt. Start easy, easy success, slowly increase difficulty, continued easy success, after seeing and feeling that I am right (that it's easy), student begins believing it is easy, continued easy success at harder and harder skills, student knows it is easy.

Why, with the limited time frame of the vast majority of intro or certification courses worldwide, would you not take full advantage of a successful "training wheels" approach that accomplishes the training goals in the typical short duration?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Even when we were playing "basketball" with bowling balls we were not kneeling on the platform but swimming.

Well I have to say that you are in a serious worldwide training minority there Jim...

When my class of 4 student divers wants to see the 5' yellow margin moray come part way out of his cleaning station / den to "nuzzle" the back of my hand with his chin, they need to get calmly settled on the sand.

When I am coaxing a small octopus out for them to see it crawl a bit and then swim to a better hole, they need to be calmly settled on the sand.

When I have 4 students to get reciprocal training done with (@ 30fsw with >60' vis), I need the heavy breathers to calmly settle on the sand while waiting their turn.

When I am showing divers how to have their teeth cleaned @ 50fsw, they need to be calmly settled on the sand.

​

 

[flots am]

Well I have to say that you are in a serious worldwide training minority there Jim...

When my class of 4 student divers wants to see the 5' yellow margin moray come part way out of his cleaning station / den to "nuzzle" the back of my hand with his chin, they need to get calmly settled on the sand.

How much sand do you need to bring with you on wall dives?

flots.

 

[annlaur]

Thanks for the answer. I'm still not convinced.

First picture : I have no idea what it represents.

I sure wouldn't hover for half an hour (yawning shark pic) and kneeling was appropriate for the octopus shot, but those are hardly what I would call numerous reasons to kneel, even for a photographer.
I dove with a photographer for a week in Cozumel, the currents were sometimes ripping, yet never saw him put any body parts on the bottom except for a couple fingers on rare occasions. Here are the pics he took on those dives: Cozumel 2010 - shiningseastudio's Photos | SmugMug

I've had my teeth cleaned several times underwater, first time I think I had 20 logged dives, didn't kneel or feel like it would help in any way (and I am definitely not some sort of Superdiver, trust me).

"When in Rome…" is a false argument. Fish crap in the water, turtles eat up the coral… should we do that as well ?
And it's beside the point. The no kneeling argument isn't just about preserving the environment (although it drives me nuts when I see someone kicking in the coral or crashing onto the reef). It's about safety. What if you're diving at 50 feet deep over a 100 ft reef and you (*) need to solve an issue and only know how to do it while kneeling ? What if you're offgassing at 20 ft towards the end of a dive ? Are you gonna descend to the bottom or surface in a hurry just because you can't fix your problem while maintaining your equilibrium ?

As I said before, I am not against short courses (as long as the student is made aware that his certification card is in reality no more than a permit to do more practice and training, not a proof that he can safely dive the Galapagos the next day), and mine did start out with doing the skills while kneeling. But we did them as well in mid-water, and I don't think that it added any significant length of time to the class (my course lasted 5 days –don't remember if that's including theory or just the diving part– and it was one on one as I was in a remote location with barely any tourist around)

(*) So we're clear, I'm using the proverbial "you", meaning any diver who has only practiced skills while kneeling.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

How much sand do you need to bring with you on wall dives?

flots.

Working off my text you quoted, who does OW training dives on deeper than 40' (dives 1 & 2) or 60' (dives 3 & 4) walls?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Thanks for the answer. I'm still not convinced.

First picture : I have no idea what it represents.

Kona manta night dive. Try an SB search.

I sure wouldn't hover for half an hour (yawning shark pic) and kneeling was appropriate for the octopus shot, but those are hardly what I would call numerous reasons to kneel, even for a photographer.

I never said kneeling for a photograph was "numerous reasons." Completely fine with "photography" being one reason, and "white tip reef shark, Hawaiian cleaner wrasse behavior study" as another.

I dove with a photographer for a week in Cozumel, the currents were sometimes ripping, yet never saw him put any body parts on the bottom except for a couple fingers on rare occasions.

You could dive for a week with me photographing at Molokini and see me only rarely single finger touch non-living bottom, with current + Reef's End surge that significantly rips (combined I mean). Are there protection regulations for those Coz' sites?

I've had my teeth cleaned several times underwater, first time I think I had 20 logged dives, didn't kneel or feel like it would help in any way (and I am definitely not some sort of Superdiver, trust me).

Great! Perhaps our shrimp are a little more skittish than the ones you experienced. Especially with more than one diver, like photographer not taking self portrait, the surge at most cleaning stations will usually cause enough hovering photographer movement that the cleaner shrimp will not climb into a strange mouth.

"When in Rome…" is a false argument. Fish crap in the water, turtles eat up the coral… should we do that as well ?

First off; which turtles "eat" up the coral? Perhaps you meant to type "beat" up the coral; I have seen more than a few broken coral incidents by 300 lb turtles settling or surging at cleaning stations.

The dolphin "chose" to lay down next to my scooter, apparently as a way to interact with us. My marine naturalist guide training is to not block an air breather's path to air. My 2 students at that time were on their 4th OW training dive and perhaps one reason we had a quality 10 minute interaction with 3 bottle nose dolphins, in the wild, is because my students and I first showed "mastery" of "calmly settling to the bottom."

And it's beside the point. The kneeling argument for me isn't just about preserving the environment (although it drives me nuts when I see someone kicking in the coral or crashing onto the reef). It's about safety. What if you're diving at 50 feet deep over a 100 ft reef and you (*) need to solve an issue and only know how to do it while kneeling ? What if you're offgassing at 20 ft towards the end of a dive ? Are you gonna descend to the bottom or surface in a hurry just because you can't fix your problem while maintaining your equilibrium ?

The opinion I am trying to express is that I see little evidence "initial skills firmly planted" has any relationship to divers "needing to kneel" to solve a dive problem as a certified diver.

I think sloppy, lazy teaching accounts for part of it, but not by any means all of it. Look around; in general humans are sloppy and lazy (forgetful too). Divers who don't care about diving well are what I consider to be the reason for most of the bad diving and accidents.

My training in golf stresses that only playing 3 rounds per week might maintain my current level of play, but to get better I need to play more than 3 rounds per week. I think you could say that about many "skill" activities.

As I said before, I am not against short courses (as long as the student is made aware that his certification card is in reality no more than a permit to do more practice and training, not a proof that he can safely dive the Galapagos the next day), and mine did start out with doing the skills while kneeling. But we did them as well in mid-water, and I don't think that it added any significant length of time to the class (my course lasted 5 days – don't remember if that's including theory or just the diving part – and it was one on one as I was in a remote location with barely any tourist around)

Any and every typical recreational Open Water training cert card is "not proof that he (or she) can safely dive the Galapagos the next day" no matter the instructor or the agency. I thought the "current" conversation was the validity of "initial skills" on knees?

 

[Cave Diver]

First off; which turtles "eat" up the coral? Perhaps you meant to type "beat" up the coral; I have seen more than a few broken coral incidents by 300 lb turtles settling or surging at cleaning stations.

I can't say that I've observed turtles eating coral, but I have seen them eating sponges.

is because my students and I first showed "mastery" of "calmly settling to the bottom."

Have lead, will sink.

 

[annlaur]

Kona manta night dive. Try an SB search.

I will, but not "tonight". Almost 7 am here, heeeww, gotta catch some zzz…

I never said kneeling for a photograph was "numerous reasons." Completely fine with "photography" being one reason, and "white tip reef shark, Hawaiian cleaner wrasse behavior study" as another.

You wrote in a previous post "in my opinion there are numerous times when kneeling is very
appropriate during a dive." Since this thread was about newly certified divers, their safety, their training, and since I consider myself a beginner, I was wondering why and when it would be a good idea to kneel on the bottom to solve a problem. The only one I could think of was to rest/stop in a current if it's the best solution (sandy bottom and no structure to hide behind).
You've given me two other reasons : photography and observation of marine life.
Not what I had in mind.

You could dive for a week with me photographing at Molokini and see me only rarely single finger touch non-living bottom, with current + Reef's End surge that significantly rips (combined I mean). Are there protection regulations for those Coz' sites?

Yes, there are regulations in the Marine Park of Cozumel.
Are you asking out of curiousity or making a point ? I don't see how it relates to our conversation.

Great! Perhaps our shrimp are a little more skittish than the ones you experienced. Especially with more than one diver, like photographer not taking self portrait, the surge at most cleaning stations will usually cause enough hovering photographer movement that the cleaner shrimp will not climb into a strange mouth.

Oh, I wrote my previous post based on your first set of pictures, where I couldn't see the "dentist", before you uploaded the shrimp. So far I've only let tiny fish brush my teeth, and they were not shy at all. All I know is they were blue and living in the Red Sea, didn't ask their name.

First off; which turtles "eat" up the coral? Perhaps you meant to type "beat" up the coral; I have seen more than a few broken coral incidents by 300 lb turtles settling or surging at cleaning stations.

Cave Diver corrected me, I saw turtles eating up what looked like coral to me, but it likely was sponges.

The dolphin "chose" to lay down next to my scooter, apparently as a way to interact with us. My marine naturalist guide training is to not block an air breather's path to air. My 2 students at that time were on their 4th OW training dive and perhaps one reason we had a quality 10 minute interaction with 3 bottle nose dolphins, in the wild, is because my students and I first showed "mastery" of "calmly settling to the bottom."

Why not hover just off the bottom on the side ? Surely the students knew how to do that on their 4th OW dive and it would have been great practice. OK, maybe not for ten whole minutes or in a current.

The opinion I am trying to express is that I see little evidence "initial skills firmly planted" has any relationship to divers "needing to kneel" to solve a dive problem as a certified diver.

As a student, it sure helps to know you CAN do the skills without kneeling. Not just intellectually but by having actually done them at least once in open water. Sets your mind at ease.

I just don't understand why all instructors don't do it :

– If they consider that, once the student can do skills on the bottom, he doesn't need extra training to do them in mid-water, then it doesn't cost them much to offer the student the opportunity to see how easy that is. Would only take about 5 minutes per student during one of the 4 required open water dives.

– On the other end, if they consider that it requires extra training because it's multi-tasking (doing the skill while mantaining buoyancy), then the student is not IMO "safe and competent to dive", no matter what any agency says. Because when that newly certified diver gets his mask or reg kicked while swimming, there is absolutely no guarantee that he will be right above a nice patch of sandy bottom.

I think sloppy, lazy teaching accounts for part of it, but not by any means all of it. Look around; in general humans are sloppy and lazy (forgetful too). Divers who don't care about diving well are what I consider to be the reason for most of the bad diving and accidents.

My training in golf stresses that only playing 3 rounds per week might maintain my current level of play, but to get better I need to play more than 3 rounds per week. I think you could say that about many "skill" activities.

Agree.

Any and every typical recreational Open Water training cert card is "not proof that he (or she) can safely dive the Galapagos the next day" no matter the instructor or the agency. I thought the "current" conversation was the validity of "initial skills" on knees?

Wanted to stress out the importance that the newly-certified diver knows his limitations, which is unfortunately not always the case. Not saying it's the fault of the agency or instructor. I made that mistake and it was mine.

I find the "Open Water" name a bit misleading.
How about "Just out of training diver who doesn't know if he can solve a problem if he is not kneeling on the bottom"

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Working off my text you quoted, who does OW training dives on deeper than 40' (dives 1 & 2) or 60' (dives 3 & 4) walls?

When I was a DM, I worked with an instructor who always finished up his OW class with a dive on Point Defiance North Wall. Bottom's anywhere from 80-100 feet deep. Students are expected to not exceed 60 feet.

This fellow's been teaching for more than 30 years in our area, and runs some of the best classes I've seen anywhere (he's PADI, BTW). It was from him I learned the method of progression I mentioned earlier. In his class, all pool skills are demonstrated off the bottom, and by the end of the confined water sessions, all students are expected to be performing those skills off the bottom.

It was during those classes that I discovered that training OW students to do skills while hovering isn't really any more difficult than training them on their knees ... it's simply a matter of setting expectations.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)