How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[MauiScubaSteve]

There's no conflict here for me, because if I'm having an emergency braking incident on a bicycle, I'm using both hands on the brakes. Yes, it would be nice to signal at the same time, but practicality in an emergency likely dictates otherwise, for me, anyway. Back to diving...

By the time a thread reaches 100 posts there is usually little new regarding the OP, just re-gurgi-hash, and since you completely miss the point I will continue with the hijack;

The point is that if the emergency braking incident happens after you have started to signal with your right hand then the "proper" first response is not "hit the brakes"- it is "get right hand back on bike." Now your "hit the brake" decision may be too late, or if instinct caused you to "hit the brake" immediately you end up just using the front brake.

Now let's look at conformity and continuity.

A motorcycle is not necessarily required to have turn signals, but motorcyclists are required to signal; the right grip is the throttle.

The beginning training wheel bicyclist learns the same procedures used by the pack leading hog rider. :catherine:

Now, since connecting the dots similarly seems rare on SB, comparing the above with initial scuba training on knees; are we now contending that in an emergency the first "necessary" response might be where can I kneel?

What percentage of world wide typical recreational diving involves a bottom that can cause loss of visibility?

When responding to my questions, let's set the parameters of "typical recreational diving" to ~130' max depth, non-overhead, NDL diving, similar to that found in the America's / Caribbean; from ~Vancouver Island / Nova Scotia to like temperatures / conditions on South America's coasts.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now, since connecting the dots similarly seems rare on SB, comparing the above with initial scuba training on knees; are we now contending that in an emergency the first "necessary" response might be where can I kneel?

What percentage of world wide typical recreational diving involves a bottom that can cause loss of visibility?

When responding to my questions, let's set the parameters of "typical recreational diving" to ~130' max depth, non-overhead, NDL diving, similar to that found in the America's / Caribbean; from ~Vancouver Island / Nova Scotia to like temperatures / conditions on South America's coasts.

I'd be less concerned about loss of visibility than what they could possibly be damaging by kneeling. I'd also be concerned about why they have to kneel in order to resolve the problem.

Many of the students I've taken into my AOW class come into the class unable to even take a compass reading without first kneeling on the bottom. While that's not, for practical purposes, a serious concern at the sites where we train ... it IS a concern at other sites they may be diving. And it's an indication of an inability to multitask that should be resolved before this diver goes much beyond the easiest of diving conditions.

The "training wheels" analogy is apt ... kneeling is poor form, and inappropriate even in locations where silting or bottom damage isn't really a concern. The question isn't whether to take the training wheels off, but how soon. To my concern, the sooner, the better ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Agreed. If I can have people neutral and swimming is half way decent trim in a discover or intro to scuba why can't a full class have them doing by the time they get to open water? I can only guess its because some people should not be diving, instructors taking the easy way, or perhaps it really is a money scheme. If they don't get trained to dive with good buoyancy and trim they go out and see real divers doing just that. Realize they need more and HAVE to go back. Or they get pissed off that they got ripped off and don't go back. Or best of all they find an instructor who will actually teach them to dive. No standard says they have to be on their knees. That is the instructors call. So why isn't it changed. Too easy to plant em? Quicker to plant em? Or maybe the instructor themselves don't know how to demo skills in proper trim. I haven't yet seen an instructor do that yet and fail. But I haven't seen any try either. I have seen more than a few DMs I wouldn't give an advanced card to that could not demo skills neutral and in trim. I never did till I got on this board and realized that skills in a praying position are not what I want my students doing. Thanks scubaboard for opening my eyes to real diving.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Now, since connecting the dots similarly seems rare on SB, comparing the above with initial scuba training on knees; are we now contending that in an emergency the first "necessary" response might be where can I kneel?

What percentage of world wide typical recreational diving involves a bottom that can cause loss of visibility?

When responding to my questions, let's set the parameters of "typical recreational diving" to ~130' max depth, non-overhead, NDL diving, similar to that found in the America's / Caribbean; from ~Vancouver Island / Nova Scotia to like temperatures / conditions on South America's coasts.

The "training wheels" analogy is apt ... kneeling is poor form, and inappropriate even in locations where silting or bottom damage isn't really a concern. The question isn't whether to take the training wheels off, but how soon. To my concern, the sooner, the better ...

Agreed. If I can have people neutral and swimming is half way decent trim in a discover or intro to scuba why can't a full class have them doing by the time they get to open water?

See, here again, having SB'ers connect the dots similarly on SB is not easy; let's take a small peek at the OP again.

I'm writing an article for new divers on how to know when you have enough experience to go diving without an instructor or a divemaster (but with a buddy, of course!).

When I typed "initial training" above I am only for sure seeing the initial skills attempts in confined water.

If the "training wheels" analogy is good, then each person gives up the training wheels "when they are ready," but don't most people progress faster by first using the training wheels?

I am not in the "kneeling is poor form" camp. Where I dive I am fine with myself and others kneeling in areas appropriate for kneeling, and I define appropriate as non-living, non-muck. I am pretty far left environmentally, but not so far left that "all" the areas of sand around the reefs I dive are "living" to the extent that they are in need of "protection." Do we "walk" across flower laden meadows?

When I typed "a bottom that can cause loss of visibility" I made it a separate paragraph from the previous paragraph where I typed the word "knees."

By the end of my OW course my students will be diving neutrally, controlling their buoyancy and only making "appropriate" contact with the bottom (to at least my standards).

When clearing their mask, or recovering a reg, or using alternate w/ buddy, or taking a bearing, I am not worried about my OW students staying horizontal, as long as they stay in control and don't make any "inappropriate" contact.

I remain unconvinced that all divers should always be in horizontal trim. Why limit yourself to a 2 dimensional posture in a 3 dimensional realm?

I see the small percentage of worldwide divers "needing" to stay horizontal as insufficient reason for the vast majority of the worlds divers to change the way they dive.

Not many of "my" divers will ever "muck dive" and if they do they were/are informed during their OW course that different conditions may require additional training.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am not in the "kneeling is poor form" camp. Where I dive I am fine with myself and others kneeling in areas appropriate for kneeling, and I define appropriate as non-living, non-muck. I am pretty far left environmentally, but not so far left that "all" the areas of sand around the reefs I dive are "living" to the extent that they are in need of "protection." Do we "walk" across flower laden meadows?

I'm not understanding what this has to do with diving. There is no "walking" in diving ... there shouldn't be any kneeling either.

When clearing their mask, or recovering a reg, or using alternate w/ buddy, or taking a bearing, I am not worried about my OW students staying horizontal, as long as they stay in control and don't make any "inappropriate" contact.

I remain unconvinced that all divers should always be in horizontal trim. Why limit yourself to a 2 dimensional posture in a 3 dimensional realm?

I see the small percentage of worldwide divers "needing" to stay horizontal as insufficient reason for the vast majority of the worlds divers to change the way they dive.

Trim and buoyancy control are completely separate skills ... I don't care if my students are in horizontal trim while clearing a mask ... I DO care that they can do so while staying off the bottom.

The only time horizontal trim is applicable is when they're moving ... because not being horizontal means they're pushing more water out of their way than they have to ... and therefore working harder than they have to ... and therefore going through their air faster than they have to.

Not many of "my" divers will ever "muck dive" and if they do they were are informed during their OW course that different conditions may require additional training.

Just make sure and let 'em know that if they should ever decide to travel to other parts of the Pacific, make sure they don't have to clear their mask around one of these ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'm not understanding what this has to do with diving. There is no "walking" in diving ... there shouldn't be any kneeling either.

...

The only time horizontal trim is applicable is when they're moving ...

...

Just make sure and let 'em know that if they should ever decide to travel to other parts of the Pacific, make sure they don't have to clear their mask around one of these ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

In your opinion "divers shouldn't be kneeling" but in my opinion there are numerous times when kneeling is very appropriate during a dive.

In your opinion "horizontal trim is only applicable when they are moving" but in my opinion stationary horizontal trim should be in the beginning diver's "quiver."

If they only make "appropriate contact" I have no problem with my students clearing their mask around a sand surrounded scorpionfish.

Just so you know, I am still trying to relate the "aversion" to "initial" skills on the knees to the vast majority of beginning divers in the world progressing to an independent level of diving.

If I was working for Thal as an assistant, I would follow Thal's way, but in ~16 hours of interaction with a student, I am expected to produce a new diver capable of diving No Name or Knob Hill for their 4th cert dive and one of the Cathedrals for their first dive after certification, with initial skills conducted in "surging" confined water.

Firmly planted is a pretty good place to start IMHO.

 

[annlaur]

In your opinion "divers shouldn't be kneeling" but in my opinion there are numerous times when kneeling is very appropriate during a dive.

What "numerous times" are you referring too ? Can you please elaborate and give specific examples ?
I sometimes kneel in the sand if I want to stop drifting in strong current and not exert myself (although I prefer to take cover behind a structure and/or stick a finger in the bottom to secure myself). That's the only appropriate kneeling example I can think of.

 

[Peter Guy]

Firmly planted is a pretty good place to start IMHO

And have you tried teaching any other way? If not, then how valid IS your opinion?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

How about when they are praying they'll survive the dive due to not being fully competent to dive independently? Sounds like a good time to be on your knees. I don't see kneeling on anything including platforms in a quarry as necessary. Even when we were playing "basketball" with bowling balls we were not kneeling on the platform but swimming.

 

[TMHeimer]

[QUOTE=halemanō;


When I typed "a bottom that can cause loss of visibility" I made it a separate paragraph from the previous paragraph where I typed the word "knees."

By the end of my OW course my students will be diving neutrally, controlling their buoyancy and only making "appropriate" contact with the bottom (to at least my standards).

When clearing their mask, or recovering a reg, or using alternate w/ buddy, or taking a bearing, I am not worried about my OW students staying horizontal, as long as they stay in control and don't make any "inappropriate" contact.

I remain unconvinced that all divers should always be in horizontal trim. Why limit yourself to a 2 dimensional posture in a 3 dimensional realm?



We've butted heads often, but I have to say I can't disagree with anything you say on this. Though I'm not yet even a DM, some may feel I should be able to do every skill to demonstration quality while horizontal in the water column. Must admit, I've never given a thought to even trying that. Don't imagine it would be THAT difficult, as I believe my buoyancy, trim and hovering ability is quite high. I realized that the first time I just stopped above the bottom to look at something without consciously adjusting anything except maybe breathing. I think it may be excellent practise to do skills horizontally, but it's probably not necessary, as long as you can successfully do them. I take compass readings, clear my mask, the basic stuff on almost every dive while swimming. I imagine I could retrieve my regulator or remove/replace the belt while hovering or horizontal. Taking the unit on & off may be harder. As far as the kneeling goes, I don't like it-- only because it is uncomfortable for me, and I found after all that kneeling in OW class my feet tended to cramp up. My DM course Instructor advised all of us to not kneel, but put one knee/fin forward and one behind. Much better for me anyway. But I see nothing at all wrong with kneeling to do the skills. I've practised skills often on the bottom--It is just obvious you watch out for silty bottoms and where you plant yourself, regardless of bottom composition.