How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

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I don't issue cards to students that aren't ready to dive without an instructor or DM. That's kind of the point of the SCUBA instructional system....

I've thought about it some more, and now I'm kind of irritated. There are instructors out there (search any "lousy instructor" thread) that make lousy divers because they figure that the lousy diver will dive with a DM or instructor once a year on vacation. The student/diver doesn't know any better because they are newly certified, and their lousy instructor told them at the end of class that they should dive with a DM or instructor "until they feel comfortable on their own". Now, a dive magazine writer is reinforcing that stand, planning an article to make sure folks know that they need to have a hand-holder with them for the first 25, 50, 100 whatever dives.

These folks show up at the dive operator thinking we'll do everything for them, from putting their gear together, to holding their hand and checking their gauges underwater. They don't understand when we expect them to be self sufficient, have their own save-a-dive kit, and be ready to jump in when the gate opens.

This article is nothing more than a reinforcement of the dumbing down of American divers and another example of the SCUBA industry shooting itself in the foot.

Unless I'm way off base and owe you an apology.
 
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The entry level qualifications say you're competent and safe to dive without one as soon as you pass the course in conditions equal to or better than training. (other than scuba diver which isn't a real qualification anyway).

If you AREN'T capable of doing that then the instructor should not have signed you up as qualified as you've failed to reach the requirements.

Remember lots of places in the world dont have in-water guides to nanny people.
 
A student knows when his/her instructor certifies said student; students don't otherwise know. Humans are rather poor at self-assessment.

Are you asking when the student feels enough self-confidence ?
Isn't it when they take the instructor at his/her word regarding competency, beginning their post-OW cert. self-training phase ?
 
I dont think you are going to get a hard and fast answer here, the answer is totally subject to opinion.

Students are certified to go out and dive without guidance upon completion of their open water course. The reality that I notice is that many do not do this. Many people only dive on vacation which is a scenario that most of the time comes with a DM, others like to join clubs etc so they at least have experienced folk around them that can assist with logistics and guidance.

Much of this will depend on the individual and how prepared they feel following their open water course. In signing off a student the instructor is effectively unleashing that person in to the wild with his blessing to go hire/buy equipment, grab a buddy and jump in but I suspect that the vast majority of freshly certified divers get more training or go on guided dives before attempting to do this. So your goal is to try to find out what indicates to the diver that they are ready to take the next step?

It will vary, some will want to go out alone straight away others will possibly never do this.

Excellent points. May I add that the longer an OW certified person "follows the DM" the weaker his/her mental skill set will become. Planning/doing/evaluating is an evolutionary process for the new diver's confidence. Having an experience dive buddy who won't carry your gear or do your thinking for you is a plus.
 
OP -- Thank you for asking the question AND for attempting to write the article. Please ignore those who have written "IF the OW class had been good, they'd be able to dive on their own." Yup, and if pigs had wings they might be able to fly.

The reality for many people coming right out of an OW class is that their training is very basic -- not all who come out of OW, but many (and perhaps most?). Thus it is a very legitimate question for people fresh out of class to ask -- Under what conditions should I dive without a pro?

Hey, I ask a variation of that question (do I feel comfortable doing this dive?) every time I plan on doing a dive so why shouldn't someone who doesn't have my experience? And every time I go to a new environment (or one I haven't enjoyed in a while) I "dial back" the dive and do "an easy one" just to get the feel.

So, for a new diver fresh out of her OW class -- yes, she should be able to plan and execute a simple dive with her buddy. But, in reality, I suggest she NOT do it with someone who is also just out of his OW class -- unless there IS someone with more experience along -- or unless it is a dive that mimics the ones they've done in class (and even then I'd suggest having a more experienced teammate along).

In EVERY class I've taken -- from OW through Full Cave through Advanced Nitrox/Decompression/Heliox -- it has been suggested that I "take it easy" for the first dives AND, if possible, do them with someone who had more experience. If that is the suggestion for those of us who have "advanced" training, why wouldn't that be the exact same suggestion for someone who is just starting out?

So the simple answer to your question as to when a new diver should go out "on her own" is when she and her buddy feel comfortable doing so. It might be right at the end of her OW class when she'll be able to go do a dive under the exact same conditions as her training or it might be a bit later after she's had time to really contemplate and integrate her training.

But suggesting that someone go diving without an experienced teammate (and perhaps to the limits of their training) right after any class? No way -- never. Take the little steps and enjoy the journey -- go diving with more experienced divers on "baby dives" and NEVER feel guilty about "holding someone back." (The truth here is that IF the "experienced diver" is really good, they'll have more fun than the new diver because they'll be seeing all the "old stuff" again for the "first time.")

OP, thanks for bringing this up -- just tell them that the time is right when they feel comfortable.
 
Hiya. I'm a writer for California Diver magazine and I'm writing an article for new divers on how to know when you have enough experience to go diving without an instructor or a divemaster (but with a buddy, of course!).

So, I'm looking for some folks to interview for my article. Some new divers who have recently ventured out on their own (or not) would be great . . . if you'd like to share an experience with the world .. . and also (and especially!) I'm looking for a couple of instructors and DMs to give some advice to new divers on this same topic.

If you'd be willing to chat with me on the phone for 20 minutes or so, that would be awesome. I'm on deadline, so I have to get started ASAP.

Please respond here, or write to me at briannapstevens at yahoo dot com if you're interested. Keep blowing bubbles!

Cheers,
Brianna
Hi Brianna,

I am a new diver and a student of the sport so I can share my perspective for you. I believe that the quality of the instructor and the education that a student receives in their OW (Open Water) class is what truly prepares an OW student to dive without instruction/DM's present. (Naturally if you go on a chartered boat you may have a DM present anyway, but for my reply I am talking about the context of quarry diving)

I have read horror stories on Scubaboard that talks about students passing the OW class without having all requirements met and/or had super bad instructors which left the newly certified OW student very uneasy to dive without a DM/Instructor present. Some of the certified individuals I have read about went on to seek another instructor to redo their OW class with success.

I can surely tell you that I was very fortunate to have an fantastic instructor that has vast experience diving. He is a cave diver, tec diver, and instructor along with being a Dive Shop owner. My instructor and his instructor assistants took time teaching us the details in depth along with taking those aside for 1 on 1 assistance when certain students needed more help with skills.
In my opinion the quality of the diving education and the ability for the the student to get to a "comfortable" level during their instruction that allows a student to go from instruction diving to diving buddies without DM/Instructors present.

Personally, I dove my first dive (two weekends after my OW class) outside of OW class in our quarry with my buddy and we were well prepared.

I know there are also many excellent instructors that are on Scubaboard and I am sure they can relate to you from the "Teachers" perspective also.
 
Well, what is the instructor or DM DOING that the new diver needs to have them do? For me, one of the big things was navigation. I had enough to think about, just managing being underwater, staying on top of my buoyancy and monitoring my gas consumption. It was wonderful to cede some responsibility for navigation to someone else, until I had enough bandwidth to do it myself. That may not be quite as big a deal in places where you can see better (our Red Sea dives were "reef on the left going out, reef on the right coming home") but in Puget Sound, there is often no well-defined structure to follow, and visibility is often no better than ten feet or so.

I still remember quite vividly the first dive I did with a fellow student from my OW class, and without anyone more experienced. We did a simple tour of a site we had trained at, and that both of us had dived with more veteran folks before. We ended the dive and high-fived one another, because we had DONE IT!

As my husband said, although it would be ideal for new OW divers to be well-prepared to dive with one another straight out of class, the reality is that they are probably much better off to dive with someone more experienced (not necessarily a professional, though) for a little while, until they are more solid and can manage navigation better for themselves. Diving with a "big buddy" can help with making decisions like when the surf is too much for safe diving, which is something very relevant to the Southern California diver. Shoot, when I dive in SoCal, I go with someone who knows the site and conditions!
 
OP -- Thank you for asking the question AND for attempting to write the article. Please ignore those who have written "IF the OW class had been good, they'd be able to dive on their own." Yup, and if pigs had wings they might be able to fly.

The reality for many people coming right out of an OW class is that their training is very basic -- not all who come out of OW, but many (and perhaps most?). Thus it is a very legitimate question for people fresh out of class to ask -- Under what conditions should I dive without a pro?

Hey, I ask a variation of that question (do I feel comfortable doing this dive?) every time I plan on doing a dive so why shouldn't someone who doesn't have my experience? And every time I go to a new environment (or one I haven't enjoyed in a while) I "dial back" the dive and do "an easy one" just to get the feel.

So, for a new diver fresh out of her OW class -- yes, she should be able to plan and execute a simple dive with her buddy. But, in reality, I suggest she NOT do it with someone who is also just out of his OW class -- unless there IS someone with more experience along -- or unless it is a dive that mimics the ones they've done in class (and even then I'd suggest having a more experienced teammate along).

In EVERY class I've taken -- from OW through Full Cave through Advanced Nitrox/Decompression/Heliox -- it has been suggested that I "take it easy" for the first dives AND, if possible, do them with someone who had more experience. If that is the suggestion for those of us who have "advanced" training, why wouldn't that be the exact same suggestion for someone who is just starting out?

So the simple answer to your question as to when a new diver should go out "on her own" is when she and her buddy feel comfortable doing so. It might be right at the end of her OW class when she'll be able to go do a dive under the exact same conditions as her training or it might be a bit later after she's had time to really contemplate and integrate her training.

But suggesting that someone go diving without an experienced teammate (and perhaps to the limits of their training) right after any class? No way -- never. Take the little steps and enjoy the journey -- go diving with more experienced divers on "baby dives" and NEVER feel guilty about "holding someone back." (The truth here is that IF the "experienced diver" is really good, they'll have more fun than the new diver because they'll be seeing all the "old stuff" again for the "first time.")

OP, thanks for bringing this up -- just tell them that the time is right when they feel comfortable.

Peter, I think you're describing a mentor, not a professional. In my mind, a professional is paid to guide a dive, or offer instruction. I am all over a newly certified diver having a mentor and learning how to dive with them. Too many students become dependent on their instructors/divemasters telling them how to do things, and not near enough find a teammate/buddy/mentor who can help them learn the ropes. The OP wasn't asking about diving with a mentor, she was asking about diving with a professional.

For instance. When I met AWAP, he had a basic OW card and thousands of dives. He only got a nitrox card because I offered him nitrox, and he only got a solo card because I wouldn't let him dive solo without it. I have seen him mentor younger newer divers many times, but he isn't a dive professional. He is the epitome of what a new diver should find and dive with, and aspire to be someday. He is NOT a DM or instructor.
 
Hooboy ... I knew where this was going before I ever read the first response ... :shakehead:

Brianna, the most comprehensive answer I can supply would be ... as in most things related to scuba ... it depends. In theory, your initial Open Water training is supposed to prepare you to dive independent of a dive instructor. But the reality is that it depends on the quality of the instructor, the personality and aptitude of the student, and the business model of the operation who's offering the class.

Most standard agency curriculum and training materials are geared toward the largest diving demographic ... which is the tropical vacation diver. Following this curriculum strictly doesn't really prepare a diver for diving on their own, because it doesn't really teach them some of the fundamental things that an independent diver needs to know. For example, underwater navigation ... the OW class trains a diver to read a compass, and how to follow the compass to do a reciprocal ... "out and back" type dive. But the reality is that nobody ever really dives that way. We go out, wander around a bit, and come back. So the diver is trained in the fundamentals of a skill, but not really trained to apply that skill to real-world conditions. Gas management is taught as a "reactive" skill ... in other words, watch your SPG and end the dive when it reaches a certain point ... rather than as part of your dive plan, as it should be. Even the most basic skill ... buoyancy control ... isn't typically taught adequately, in part because this is a skill that really does take a certain amount of practice to really master ... and for most divers the amount of practice needed exceeds the in-water time allowed for their class. And so most divers end up with varying degrees of discomfort with their skills, and a very limited ability to dive without supervision. For many it isn't their "skills" so much as their confidence level and ability to maintain sufficient awareness of their surroundings that limits them.

It also boils down to environment. Where I dive, visibility can be an issue. OW training doesn't really prepare a diver to dive unsupervised in low-visibility conditions ... even in places where that is the norm. Why? Well, mostly because it takes more than the few dives offered in OW training to really learn how to do it. Diving in low-vis requires combining the skills of navigation, awareness, and buddy communication/positioning. That's in addition to watching your buoyancy control. And it's quite a handful to expect from any newly-certified diver ... most of whom are using up all their mental bandwidth just trying to remember everything that got thrown at them in OW class. In an environnment where the diver can see better there is significantly less task-loading, and a new diver has a much easier time feeling comfortable enough to be able to conduct their own dive independently.

And it boils down to personality. How confident is the diver? How comfortable are they being underwater? These are really individual traits that have nothing to do with the quality of instruction you received. Some people are very self-confident, and adapt very quickly to new things. Others require more time and effort to find a comfort level that would make unsupervised diving a good idea.

While it is a great notion that people should not receive their certification until they have achieved a competence and comfort level that enables them to dive unsupervised ... we all know that's not the reality. One only has to spend a few days at any local or tropical dive site to see people who are certified, but obviously not ready to be planning and executing dives without at least a more experienced diver helping them along. We all would agree that's a level of dependency that isn't desireable in diving ... but we have also seen how common it is.

One can lament that it's because of the "dumbing down" of training ... and it isn't just American training folks, I've seen Asians and Europeans who are just as incompetent in the water as their American counterparts ... but it's really the result of an approach that says "anyone can learn to dive". The fact is that not everyone should dive ... not even among those who put real effort into learning.

Like any other recreational activity, how well adapted you are toward doing it at a given level is going to depend on a combination of your training, your natural abilities, and your motivation ... and these will all depend on the individual. I've seen fresh-out-of-OW divers who look like they were a fish in a former life ... and I've seen people who've been diving for years who still look completely uncomfortable underwater.

So there is no simple answer. There is no simplistic ... "here's how it should be". And unless we want to go back to the bad old days of making scuba diving the exclusive domain of the testosterone crowd, lamenting about the "dumbing down" of scuba education is a waste of breath ... it is what it is for business reasons that have everything to do with making diving accessible to the masses. The best any of us can do ... as dive professionals or just as experienced divers ... is to help our newer members learn the things that they won't learn in a class, and expand on the things that they did learn, so that they can become independent as quickly as possible. And that will be ... for each one of them ... exactly when they decide they're competent and comfortable enough to feel confidence in their ability to plan and execute a dive on their own. It might be right out of OW class, or years and many dives later ... it all depends on the diver.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
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I have no issue with a student wanting to dive with a more experienced diver. I do have one with them having to because their ow class did not do enough to prepare them to dive independently. I have a student going to st thomas in the spring. We will do a refresher in the pool before he leaves and since he is a single diver I advised him to find a dm to use when he gets there. Someone from this board in fact. Better than hooking up with an instabuddy that may not be as capable as he is. Where the problem comes in is when Instructors seem to be permitted to go around standards that their agencies VOLUNTARILY AGREE to when they sign on with the RSTC. I guess that only applies when it doesn't affect the bottom line. I see that I am going to make a lot of people angry when my book comes out. I cite the RSTC standard that says an OW diver fresh out of their certification program should be able to plan, execute, and safely return from a dive with a buddy of EQUAL SKILL and TRAINING and no professional present. What that says to me is that when a diver is turned loose that HAS TO HAVE a dm or other pro with them to keep them from getting hurt or killing themself is that the class did not meet that standard. I gues that is why they adopted the new standards for divers(?) that must be led around like sheep. Sounds like someone whined and pushed to give some semblance of legitimacy to putting unqualified people in the water.

Just confirmed that essentially that is what it was with an RSTC rep I know.
 
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