How different are tec courses agency to agency

[Lorenzoid]

Here is the instruction web site of a dive shop that offers tech instruction through GUE, TDI, and PADI. I suspect that the owner of the shop must believe that it is possible to get quality tech instruction from any of those three agencies.

For those readers who are not aware, that shop, Extreme Exposure, is the home of GUE. The shop owner is the founder of GUE.

Maybe an instructor affiliated with EE would be a good person for the OP to ask the original question to.

 

[Omisson]

What you and I believe does not matter here because we are NOT the one choosing.

But in the aspect of choosing dive training, what he/she believe is what matters because the statistic you are refering to does NOT exist. Statistics require the collection of data. One can definitely go count PADI and GUE instructor number, but doing a objective servey on the quality of the instructors/training isn't possible at all. This would require the same person taking class from a large group of instructor for the same class. No one is going to do it. Choosing an agency is usually driven by the goal behind the training, could it be a license to go deep, to collect a card, being a better/safer diver .... Then there are constraint: cost, time, a "must" pass, logistics.

So I will ask you this. Your most significant other is asking to where to look to start tech training, and sure you want the best for him/her. Are you going to recommend PADI over GUE?

Ugh.

It IS not only possible to do a statistical and objective analysis - it doesn't require a single student taking the same course with multiple agencies... What it does require rather, is a controlled analysis of the training offered by each agency and a measure of the relative successes in achieving the goal of learning the skills taught to the students by those classes.

But no agency will likely let you do the analysis for the same reasons none want to give you accurate certification numbers. "He who controls the data alone can manipulate the data to their own interests."

As for your silly question:

If my girlfriend were taking Tec - I'd trust her to take it with PADI Instructors Jim Wyatt in North Florida, Keith Higdon of South Florida, Peter Hearn in Connecticut, or TDI Instructors Steve Scigliano or Paul Cama on Long Island or IANTD Instructor Jeff Hirschman in Suffolk County, or Reggie Ross of Florida....

I wouldn't recommend a lot of instructors too- but the one thing I would be sure is that she was taught to be able to adapt, think for herself, and realize nobody has all the answers- let alone all the answers right.

 

[Peter Guy]

Cap. Sinbad -- I think Boulderjohn's link to the Extreme Exposure training website really answers your question regarding "How different is the technical training" amongst the various agencies.

Simple answer -- ain't necessarily much difference is there? Yup, it is truly all about the instructor, not the agency. PADI, for example, has, what appears to me, to be a pretty thorough course with "baby steps" -- as does UTD. GUE's progression appears to take somewhat bigger bites (if you will) towards the same end.

But does anyone think a PADI Tec Basics, Tec 40, 45 and 50 course taught by any of the instructors at EE would be significantly different from Fundies and Tec 1 under the GUE banner?

BTW, my one experience with this was my cave training where the instructor asked me which agency I wanted AFTER we had done the training - NSS-CDS, NAUI, TDI (and maybe one or two others). It was all about the instructor, not the agency and I believe it still is.

 

[eelnoraa]

This does NOT represent what a general PADI class will be like, does it? In fact, take a honest guess what % of PADI instructors also can teach in GUE/UTD/IANTD Tech cirriculum.

I absolutely agree the instructors are what matters. You can definitely find PADI instructors that are as good or better than GUE instructors. That however, if when you know the good instructors. If you don't know, PADI can have a lot of variation in quality, and you may or may not be disappointed.

My main complain is NOT on instructors. If I offended anyone in this group, I sincerely apologize. I do have issue with the low end of PADI's qualification for instructors. I have has very bad experience (waste of time and money, border line dangerous kind of bad) from PADI AOW, drysuit, nitrox, wreck. 4 difference classes with 4 different instructors out of total 6 PADI class (OW and rescue were pretty good)

 

[Omisson]

This does NOT represent what a general PADI class will be like, does it? In fact, take a honest guess what % of PADI instructors also can teach in GUE/UTD/IANTD Tech cirriculum.

I absolutely agree the instructors are what matters. You can definitely find PADI instructors that are as good or better than GUE instructors. That however, if when you know the good instructors. If you don't know, PADI can have a lot of variation in quality, and you may or may not be disappointed.

My main complain is NOT on instructors. If I offended anyone in this group, I sincerely apologize. I do have issue with the low end of PADI's qualification for instructors. I have has very bad experience (waste of time and money, border line dangerous kind of bad) from PADI AOW, drysuit, nitrox, wreck. 4 difference classes with 4 different instructors out of total 6 PADI class (OW and rescue were pretty good)

The problem is in the scale of size of PADI - they are so large that it is very difficult to keep a tight quality control system in place.

GUE has excellent quality control because they are small enough to make refresher renewals part of the SOP. As a result bad instructors weed out or are corrected far quicker.

But the science, development and materials PADI puts out now are tremendous.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

The problem is in the scale of size of PADI - they are so large that it is very difficult to keep a tight quality control system in place.

GUE has excellent quality control because they are small enough to make refresher renewals part of the SOP. As a result bad instructors weed out or are corrected far quicker.

But the science, development and materials PADI puts out now are tremendous.

Instructor part is true but my understanding is that they in order to "teach the world how to dive" PADI has also lowered their standards intentionally as well. I have met quite a few people who failed Fundies course but I have yet to find a single person who failed PADI OW or any other course at their recreational level. I know of a PADI shop that says that we will continue to work with a weak student until they are at a level where we feel we can issue them a card. I have great respect for the PADI instructor there and I have taken a few courses from her too. Most other shops that I have been to do not go that far to ensure quality. So yes there are some really great PADI instructors who are great out of their own initiative but what is the purpose of having a certifying agency then? If it is all up to the instructor the we should do away with certifying agencies and let instructors be their own bosses. No?

 

[tursiops]

Instructor part is true but my understanding is that they in order to "teach the world how to dive" PADI has also lowered their standards intentionally as well. I have met quite a few people who failed Fundies course but I have yet to find a single person who failed PADI OW or any other course at their recreational level. I know of a PADI shop that says that we will continue to work with a weak student until they are at a level where we feel we can issue them a card. I have great respect for the PADI instructor there and I have taken a few courses from her too. Most other shops that I have been to do not go that far to ensure quality. So yes there are some really great PADI instructors who are great out of their own initiative but what is the purpose of having a certifying agency then? If it is all up to the instructor the we should do away with certifying agencies and let instructors be their own bosses. No?

Dude, you need to get over this continuing comparison of an intro to tech class with an OW class.

 

[tkdgodess]

Maybe it doesnt count as failed, but i did not certify 3 divers as aow this past weekend even though they completed 5 dives, they failed to adequately do the skills. Navigation took 2 dives. They owe me at least 2 more dives to get certified. We discussed expectations and requirements and i do not feel i have an inflated idea of mastery just because i read scubaboard.

 

[demed]

I have noticed that. Is it not problematic tho? GUE and UTD train good divers but since their Open Water C-card is not often recognized, they have to issue OW cards from other agencies. I am thinking how difficult would it be for GUE to reach out to top dive operators in Thailand, Maldives, Indonesia and other top destinations and offer to host their website banner on the official GUE website and say that these businesss recognize GUE Open Water and also supply standardized gasses, do not demand that GUE divers wear a dive computer etc. If such a campaign is done for free by GUE and UTD, who would reject a free banner? This can work a long way towards creating global acceptability for these smaller organizations. This could be a business relationship that could work both ways. Thoughts?

why wouldn't UTD or GUE cards be accepted? maybe because they choose not to be members of the RSTC?
in any case, it seems that given their shops and instructors prefer in the greater majority to issue PADI or NAUI cards, the investment to reach out with a global marketing awareness campaign would be a waste of money

 

[tomfcrist]

RSTC has little to do with it. NAUI isn't a member either.

The fact that these folks have never heard if GUE or UTD has a lot to do with it.