Hosed or Hoseless, computer questions

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My husband only has one transmitter; it's on his backgas. He therefore has access to his pressure information during the portion of the dive where it's most variable.

Deco gas is planned to be adequate (or, more precisely, MORE than adequate) for the contingency bottom time. Honestly, knowing your pressure in your deco bottle, absent malfunction, is almost irrelevant. It's enough, if you planned properly; it isn't, if you didn't. You should ALWAYS have something else you can switch to, if you empty the bottle.
 
You seem to like the fallacy of argument ad hominem. You attack Beaver in another post above because he "shamelessly promotes" Scubapro. . .

I too have issues with Beaver, but a bit of insight is useful (at least IMHO). Beaver is a SP "Platinum" dealer. He cannot sell competitive products by ANY other company. Period. Irrespective of their merits. So unless you believe SP has the secret sauce for every product they carry, then Beaver is at best guilty of the old saying "If the only tool you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail"
 
Nope acutely aware of the forum. Does not change my opinion that transmitters are perfectly capable. Remember I do dive with backups (actually two other devices monitoring air). What is your complaint about that whether technical or not? I get that many of you technical divers exclude computers and certainly transmitting computers. SO WHAT? I tend to follow logic not prevailing wisdom.

If you're not trained or experienced with technical diving, then there is the distinct possibility of a flaw in the logic.

There are plenty of SB threads and other internet resources that explain why and how technical diving configurations are put together in a generally standard manner. You may not appreciate 'prevailing wisdom', but your logical conclusions may benefit from having investigated the evidence and opinions that are available.

Don't think for a second that anyone is trying to force some type of dogma on you - technical divers shouldn't be clones who regurgitate information without understanding it. That said, much, if not all, of the "prevailing wisdom" in technical diving originates from hard lessons learned as a result of accident analysis. People died to make those lessons learned. Keep an open mind, but be wary of repeating costly mistakes that could otherwise be avoided.

...you attack my point by saying I am not taking into account technical diving when I am. You might be taken more seriously if you avoid ad hominems and just make your point.

Please forgive me for not having identified where you took technical diving into account in your answer. I saw zero consideration of technical diving philosophies or methodologies in your response.

A large part of entry-level technical diving training involves the development of a 'technical diving mindset'. That mindset encompasses an awareness of the risks, a realistic appreciation of diver capabilities and a coherent risk mitigation approach to the planning and conduct of technical dives; including the protocols and configurations used.

At the risk of sounding dismissive (which I certainly don't want to appear, hence the effort in making this reply to you), without an appreciation of that 'technical diving mindset', there is little common ground from which technical and non-technical divers can form a positive and cohesive debate on technical diving issues. Technical diving is different to recreational diving - in approach and mindset. That isn't arrogance, elitism or a clique mentality; it is a statement of fact. A fact that may not be appreciable until someone has experienced technical diving training. Applying a recreational diving mindset to a technical diving debate is likely to provide fruitless results.
 
For a start, you have to add another step to your gas switch procedure; changing transmitters on the computer. That's a shift to more complexity. That complexity arises at critical phases in the dive (gas switches). It brings further room for error and greater task loading.

As a technical diving 'principle', is it defensible to increase complexity for no tangible gains in capability?


I do not use a computer with a transmitter, and when I did (on rec dives), I had several problems with the system's reliability. However, in terms of complexity of use, I do not see your point. If the diver is using the computer out of gauge mode, he will have to make the gas switches on his computer, no matter if it monitors the cylinders' pressure or not. Therefore, I do see an increase in complexity from using a computer in bottom timer mode to "standard mode", but as I see it having a transmitter would simply tell the computer to start showing the deco cylinder's pressure in addition to using the new mix to compute deco obligation.
 
[-]Deco [/-]All gas is planned to be adequate (or, more precisely, MORE than adequate) for the contingency bottom time. Honestly, knowing your pressure in your [-]deco[/-] bottles, absent malfunction, is almost irrelevant. It's enough, if you planned properly; it isn't, if you didn't. You should ALWAYS have something else you can switch to, if you empty [-]the[/-] a bottle.

Just a quick edit that more accurately reflects gas management for technical diving. :wink:

Whether bottom or deco gas, the SPG exists to tell you something you should already know. In the rare event that gas consumption is impacted by unusual factors, such as a failure/leak or escalated consumption rate, then the SPG is consulted and a pre-planned contingency is enacted. Nonetheless, in all reasonable circumstances, and assuming the correct protocols are performed effectively and in a timely manner, the reserve should be sufficient to ensure a safe conclusion to the dive.

Beaverdivers claims an approximately equal failure rate between SPGs and transmitters. I'd like to see those statistics. In all honesty, I doubt that claim.

By the term "failure", we must include any event that causes the gauge to fail, whether permanently or temporarily, to provide the diver with immediate and accurate information of the gas volume in a given cylinder - the loss of which would warrant an immediate abort of the dive and/or would compromise the diver's safety and reduce their confidence and situational awareness in the water.

---------- Post added September 30th, 2013 at 01:51 PM ----------

I do not use a computer with a transmitter, and when I did (on rec dives), I had several problems with the system's reliability. However, in terms of complexity of use, I do not see your point. If the diver is using the computer out of gauge mode, he will have to make the gas switches on his computer, no matter if it monitors the cylinders' pressure or not. Therefore, I do see an increase in complexity from using a computer in bottom timer mode to "standard mode", but as I see it having a transmitter would simply tell the computer to start showing the deco cylinder's pressure in addition to using the new mix to compute deco obligation.

When setting up the transmitters onto cylinders, the diver will have to confirm which transmitter is on which gas. This has to be programmed into his computer. An error made at this stage can be catastrophic later on the dive. That potential for error simply does not exist in gauge mode, or without the transmitters used.

For this reason, when we set-up cylinders, we confirm the gas and mark them. It doesn't end there though. We don't dismiss the process as 'finished'. We also perform very proscribed gas switching procedures, which serve to provide a final in-water/concurrent confirmation and security against human error. The process of checks does not conclude at set-up, but rather, it spans the entire dive; pre-dive and in-water.

When conducting the actual gas switch procedure, the diver will conduct that actual, formal gas switch (same as normal), conduct the switch on his computer (same as normal, if computer is used). If a transmitter is used, he will then have to confirm that the transmitter is correctly aligned to the tank he is using. How?

We can mark tanks with %/MOD to prevent such errors. We have formal gas-switching protocols to confirm that an error doesn't arise, or can be swiftly resolved, to prevent a fatal outcome. That is a core focus in all technical diving training. What measures do we have, as a standard, to confirm no error has been made in the configuration the transmitter relationship between cylinder breathed-to-gas content-to-display/computation?

Or are we suggesting that either; (1) an error couldn't occur, or (2) an error could be tolerated?

If not, the diver has to enact a further protocol/s as part of their gas-switch procedure to guard against expected, reasonable human error. This is the added complexity to which I refer...
 
There was a short period of time, 10yrs ago, that I had a tec computer. And I used it primarily as a back-up to the pre-cut plan. The computer always "cleared" first. So I sold the computer and dived ONLY with pre-cut plan ever since.
Some of my buddies have those fancy tec computers but we all agreed that pre-cut plan is the plan to follow. Plan the dive and dive the plan.

It's a fine sentiment, but if I dove the plan I'd stay exactly at the max depth for the full bottom time. The fact of the matter is, we tend to dive within the plan rather than strictly diving the plan. Since I tend to dive solo, following the computers (assuming they're both working) and accepting their revised plan tailored to the lesser exposure actually incurred doesn't pose the kind of problems that might occur with trying to run a team that way.
 
When setting up the transmitters onto cylinders, the diver will have to confirm which transmitter is on which gas. This has to be programmed into his computer. An error made at this stage can be catastrophic later on the dive. That potential for error simply does not exist in gauge mode, or without the transmitters used.

For this reason, when we set-up cylinders, we confirm the gas and mark them. It doesn't end there though. We don't dismiss the process as 'finished'. We also perform very proscribed gas switching procedures, which serve to provide a final in-water/concurrent confirmation and security against human error. The process of checks does not conclude at set-up, but rather, it spans the entire dive; pre-dive and in-water.

When conducting the actual gas switch procedure, the diver will conduct that actual, formal gas switch (same as normal), conduct the switch on his computer (same as normal, if computer is used). If a transmitter is used, he will then have to confirm that the transmitter is correctly aligned to the tank he is using. How?

We can mark tanks with %/MOD to prevent such errors. We have formal gas-switching protocols to confirm that an error doesn't arise, or can be swiftly resolved, to prevent a fatal outcome. That is a core focus in all technical diving training. What measures do we have, as a standard, to confirm no error has been made in the configuration the transmitter relationship between cylinder breathed-to-gas content-to-display/computation?

Or are we suggesting that either; (1) an error couldn't occur, or (2) an error could be tolerated?

If not, the diver has to enact a further protocol/s as part of their gas-switch procedure to guard against expected, reasonable human error. This is the added complexity to which I refer...


I hadn't thought about the issues surrounding the verification that the cylinders are correctly labeled on the computer. You raise some very good points.
 
I'm a massive fan of hoseless SPGs and the use with wrist mounted computers. I've got an Oceanic (Atom2) and a Suunto (DX)

However even though I'm a fan, they have no place in Technical diving - or rather diving where Deco is planned and accounted for. Plan your gas, your stops - and dive the plan and do not deviate.

For 'recreational' diving I'm a lot more lax, take a 12ltr, know the max depth and go diving and just follow the PDC, it tells you, your NoDecoLimit, your AirTimeReminding and all the rest - this may not be 'correct' and I might be crazy, but I trust these hoseless computers to do that and been okay for the past 10yrs.

For all my Trimix / CCR stuff I've got a Petrel (and DX) which I've got as backups to my Vision, which I also have a slate written up too, if an underwater EMP goes off.
 
I can't recommend a Shearwater product enough...I absolutely love my Petrel for many many reasons over other brands/models.

I don't like having something that can get bumped/broken in a cave..so I won't touch anything with a transmitter.
Plus I dive sidemount with multiple other tanks on any given dive...so a transmitter is kind of useless when you have 4 independent tanks you are bashing against each other, dropping along a line, against rocks, etc.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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