Hog D1 vs MK 17/C300

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I'm not going to pee on the Hog owner's parade to any great extent. But here are my observations:

Hog regs sell at a comparatively low price point. At that price point it's really difficult to get OEM parts that all meet the tolerances required to get consistently high performance from reg to reg. Consequently while the finish of the parts may look fine, that's not the most important indicator of quality and you'll see greater variation form reg to reg.

Any time you have a second stage with an adjustment knob that does not include a micro adjust, the spring tolerance (dimensions, force, rate of compression, etc) is extremely important if you are to get maximum performance from the second stage, and it's hard to nail those tolerances without buying large batches of springs and hand selecting the ones with the required traits. Scubapro accomplishes that by buying lots of springs, hand picking them for the G250V, and then using the rest in other models with a micro adjust feature. I'm open to hearing what HOG does.

I'm also a bit fussy about things like tolerances when I'm dealing with life support equipment I may be using 3/4 of mile back in a cave and/or 200' deep and I just can;t bring myself to trust a reg made with parts that probably come of the left hand side of the production distribution / quality control curve.

On the other hand, most companies have lower price point regs where the tolerances may slide a bit, so I have no issue comparing Hog regs favorable to other low end regs. In that regard they do offer an advantage of using / incorporating design features normally only found on higher end regs - but you still have to keep the quality control and consistency aspects in mind, when comparing them to similar high end reg designs.

----

As noted above, I initially liked the C300 a lot when I got to play with an early model at a serviced clinic, but after I finally got one 6 months later, it has not impressed me as much. My impression was that Scubapro's goal was to create a very well made high performance unbalanced second stage, primarily to appeal to the European market where unbalanced second stages are preferred. In that regard it would not be comparable to a low end wider tolerances second stage like the R395, etc but rather would have quality similar to the high end Scuabpro second stages. And in fact that's important in the C300 given that the lever and air barrel design require very precise tolerances and high levels of quality assurance to ensure high performance. (The X650 used a similar lever and air barrel without QA inspection of each and every lever, with the result the the regs were not consistent and ended up being recalled.)

However given that mine is still good but less than stellar in it's performance in term soy cracking effort, I have doubts. My just could be a lemon with a single out of spec part, or it could suggest a larger QA issue and an effort to reduce the cost by accepting springs, etc that don't hold to sufficiently tight tolerances. As noted above, I am picky about that stuff.

As someone suggested above, I'd also recommend the Mk 17 G250V. The Mk 17 is the best diaphragm first stage currently available from any company, and in particular for cold water. And I think the G250V is still the best second stage available from any company in terms of overall durability and inhalation performance. And as noted above, Scubapro holds them to the very tight tolerances needed to get peak performance from this design.
 
The Mk 17 is the best diaphragm first stage currently available from any company, and in particular for cold water.

DA Aquamaster would it be to much to ask to elaborate what features you find are distinct on MK17 and what make it the best. I have seen Zeagle and Apeks inside but I have never seen MK17 inside and it would be interesting to learn from your experience. One thing I did notice recently while hooking up hoses to my friends MK17 that it had very little drop in IP on inhalation and instantaneous recovery. I have several Flathead VI and Apekses and none of them provide that quick recovery and so little drop. That all alone made me wanting to buy this reg and strip down to see the insides :) Probably my MK25 and MK20(latest with a composite piston) give about the same but not the diaphragms.

Thanks in advance.
 
The noticeable difference is the size of the air passages and the size of the working range of the valve in the Mk 17. It uses a thin diaphragm as well as a pair of washers that serve to increase the distance that the seat can lift off the orifice. It also has a separate bleed hole to the balance sized of the seat carrier so gas can move back and forth very efficiently in response to pressure changes. Finally, the high pressure orifice, seat and carrier are designed to maximize air flow. The orifice has a radius sunder the seating edge and the seat and carrier are designed to allow higher gas flow than in traditional designs.

The end result of the combination of the flexible diaphragm, better seat carrier balancing and better flow past the seat/orifice due to both streamlining and greater working range is very fast response time and high flow rates that were not previously found in diaphragm first stages.

The Mk 17 made me a convert to diaphragm regs and I replaced my Mk 20s and 25s with them shortly after the Mk 17 came out.
 
Thanks a lot for the information that's very interesting... I think I will eventually try to get an MK17 and check it inside...
 
I dunno man, I'm currently in possession of 14 first stages and 18 second stages and they're shockingly consistent (to say nothing of the dozen regs I've used that friends have bought). I've had no issues breathing them back in a cave or well beneath 200' in cold, cold water. You may get a sense of security from your scubapro reg, but the amount of money I've saved by not buying them has paid for weeks of diving all over the world. Also - I'm not sure why you'd need micro adjustment when you can tune the reg to breathe however you want. I'm a convert.
 
I dunno man, I'm currently in possession of 14 first stages and 18 second stages and they're shockingly consistent (to say nothing of the dozen regs I've used that friends have bought). I've had no issues breathing them back in a cave or well beneath 200' in cold, cold water. You may get a sense of security from your scubapro reg, but the amount of money I've saved by not buying them has paid for weeks of diving all over the world. Also - I'm not sure why you'd need micro adjustment when you can tune the reg to breathe however you want. I'm a convert.

But if you do not have a micro- adjustment you cannot set the initial cranking effort without affecting the lever height , no ?

Does not HOG second have that micro adjustment ? I have asked one person and they said it had, but myself I have never disassembled the HOG 2nd.
 
The adjustment in the hog 2nd is made by rotating the orifice nut in or out. If too far in, yes, that will lower lever height - but you shouldn't need to do that if you have IP locked at the right point. Using a magnehelic gauge and an in-line adjuster you can set any cracking pressure you want and you shouldn't have to compromise lever height in the process (my experience, anyway).
 
DA Aquamaster like to damn me with faint praise.... oh well. regardless of what he seems to know, the price point of my regs reflects less overhead, no reps, no $12,000 back cover of magazine full color ads and different margin goals than some of the major brands. The lower cost does NOT come from me scrimping on quality components nor will you see greater variation in performance or quality. in fact my regs are better made than MANY "major" brands.

That said,to the OP's actual question. SP makes an EXCELLENT product and if you have a local dealer you like dealing with that will support you...you can't go wrong. I used to dive the G250 for thousands of dives and many years, it's great (but honestly I like the HOG or EDGE seconds better now), I tested a c300 last year and was very impressed by both it's performance and build quality.
 
The adjustment in the hog 2nd is made by rotating the orifice nut in or out. If too far in, yes, that will lower lever height - but you shouldn't need to do that if you have IP locked at the right point. Using a magnehelic gauge and an in-line adjuster you can set any cracking pressure you want and you shouldn't have to compromise lever height in the process (my experience, anyway).

Thanks, this is how I think it was, so that person was not correct saying it has the micro adjustment...

Yes I do the same on my Zeagle second - only the orifice movement, although I find it does not give me too much range without compromising the lever
 
I'm not going to pee on the Hog owner's parade to any great extent. But here are my observations:

Hog regs sell at a comparatively low price point. At that price point it's really difficult to get OEM parts that all meet the tolerances required to get consistently high performance from reg to reg. Consequently while the finish of the parts may look fine, that's not the most important indicator of quality and you'll see greater variation form reg to reg.

Any time you have a second stage with an adjustment knob that does not include a micro adjust, the spring tolerance (dimensions, force, rate of compression, etc) is extremely important if you are to get maximum performance from the second stage, and it's hard to nail those tolerances without buying large batches of springs and hand selecting the ones with the required traits. Scubapro accomplishes that by buying lots of springs, hand picking them for the G250V, and then using the rest in other models with a micro adjust feature. I'm open to hearing what HOG does.

I'm also a bit fussy about things like tolerances when I'm dealing with life support equipment I may be using 3/4 of mile back in a cave and/or 200' deep and I just can;t bring myself to trust a reg made with parts that probably come of the left hand side of the production distribution / quality control curve.

On the other hand, most companies have lower price point regs where the tolerances may slide a bit, so I have no issue comparing Hog regs favorable to other low end regs. In that regard they do offer an advantage of using / incorporating design features normally only found on higher end regs - but you still have to keep the quality control and consistency aspects in mind, when comparing them to similar high end reg designs.

----

As noted above, I initially liked the C300 a lot when I got to play with an early model at a serviced clinic, but after I finally got one 6 months later, it has not impressed me as much. My impression was that Scubapro's goal was to create a very well made high performance unbalanced second stage, primarily to appeal to the European market where unbalanced second stages are preferred. In that regard it would not be comparable to a low end wider tolerances second stage like the R395, etc but rather would have quality similar to the high end Scuabpro second stages. And in fact that's important in the C300 given that the lever and air barrel design require very precise tolerances and high levels of quality assurance to ensure high performance. (The X650 used a similar lever and air barrel without QA inspection of each and every lever, with the result the the regs were not consistent and ended up being recalled.)

However given that mine is still good but less than stellar in it's performance in term soy cracking effort, I have doubts. My just could be a lemon with a single out of spec part, or it could suggest a larger QA issue and an effort to reduce the cost by accepting springs, etc that don't hold to sufficiently tight tolerances. As noted above, I am picky about that stuff.

As someone suggested above, I'd also recommend the Mk 17 G250V. The Mk 17 is the best diaphragm first stage currently available from any company, and in particular for cold water. And I think the G250V is still the best second stage available from any company in terms of overall durability and inhalation performance. And as noted above, Scubapro holds them to the very tight tolerances needed to get peak performance from this design.

I don"t think an informed post like this is peeing on our parade at all. It's the posts that state a friend, friend of a friend or shop owner, said that they were built cheap and are junk are the posts that get the parade goers all riled up. I have switched over to HOG from SP and I'm happy with the decision, I wanted to service my regs my self and did not have a reliable source for SP parts. I inquired at my LDS several times about working for them repairing regs and that went no where, so then came the HOG's. If SP would have had a path for the qualified diver to self service there regs I never would have changed.
 

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