Hit & run diver accident in the Keys

[DandyDon]

On line petitions have a feel good factor, but I don't think they accomplish anything.

Isnt there a way that boaters need to get a license... If you drive a car you need one... why not a boater as well... I believe this would be a good start, it may take a few years, but I am tired of seeing boats flying over my head and running over my dive flag...

Bad for tourism business. Money talks & votes.

They need to make some high profile prosecutions in these cases.

They also need to make whatever changes to the law is required to impound the boats when the accident involves significant injuries or death and is due to negligence. That's what it'll take to get the attention of some boaters.

I like that idea. You have to get their attention and begging doesn't seem effective. Hit 'em where it hurts.

I remember a sailboat on Molasses Reef. I cursed him harshly, and he was certainly close enough to hear me, but clueless. He's lucky I was unarmed, as he was within speargun range.

 

[Doubler]

I am in no way defending the boater here but dependent on where the flag was and wind conditions he might not have seen the flag. On a day with no breeze the flag just lays against the halyard. If the diver was towing the flag it may have been laid over in the water. What is TOTALLY inexcusable is to keep going after you hit something in the water. I have hit logs and trust me you know something just hit your prop. Why do other boaters always seem to have the need to speed by anchored craft? There is a lot of ocean out there, slow down and go around.

 

[deeper thoughts]

The spearfishers I saw Sunday were WAY to far from the dive boat flag and nobody was towing a flag or float

 

[John_B]

This is tragic, and makes me mad. Unfortunately, boaters are MUCH more popular vs. divers, and they pay bucks for their boats, gas, licensing, etc. So boaters have $$$ on their side, and divers in general do not. We are a rather small minority compared to the boating community, even if some divers do own boats, and there is a strong diving industry in FL, and CA.

Be careful with your demands to authority... there are probably 25 boaters for every one of us, 25 votes to 1. They could easily "solve the problem" by making laws that keep divers away from anywhere there are boats (it has happened in a few places already), and that isn't a "solution" we want.

Replace "boats" and "boaters" with "cars" or trucks", and "divers" with "pedestrians" in the above paragraphs. Does it still make sense? Are motor vehicle laws too much of a "demand to authority"?

Worse still, at least the written drivers license test verifies that people know what a school zone sign looks like and what a crosswalk is and what the standard speed limits are for different types of roads. We don't even have a boating license test! Nobody thinks that boating regulations should be tested on the drivers test, but then a drivers license is all that's required to operate a boat. That is seriously frick'ed up. I would say the first time many "boat drivers" of small boats are even aware of the boating regulations is when they get jacked up by the Coasties or FWC.

Maybe instead of handing out pamphlets on two or three weekends a year, we should post the existing dive flag regulations (and fines for violations) on signs near docks, harbors, waterways, etc. where divers in the water are common. I'll be the first to admit how difficult that would be for Florida, given the how many miles there are of the intercoastal throughout the state.

That brings me back to my earlier point. If we can't test all the "boat drivers", at least we could test all the "boat owners". At least that would be something you could administer or test for at the time the boat was licensed. Then they would be responsible for whoever they loaned/leased/rented their boat to.

The spearfishers I saw Sunday were WAY to far from the dive boat flag and nobody was towing a flag or float

Continuing the analogy, some people cross at the crosswalk and some people negligently cross wherever it is convenient.

There was a dive flag in the water and all of the divers were within 100 feet of the flag, Dube said.

We are talking about people surfacing with SMBs or near dive flags as required by law. The people who can't be bothered to try to protect themselves are a completely different issue and that's not what was being discussed here.

This is getting sickening. Its not like there is never a diver or two on Pickles every now and then.... There was about six inches of swell in the Keys this weekend and great vis so weather conditions were not a factor. Somehow I bet the "irresponsible, inexperienced, self-centered, having no situational awareness, knuckle-head behind the wheel of a boat" factor may have played a huge role. Thank goodness the man who was struck is going to recover.

Wasn't there an effort recently to add Pickles to the SPA? Whatever ever happened with that?

 

[Darnold9999]

We do have a requirement that boat owners have a license here. You might get asked what a dive flag is when tested, but you probably won't. If you take the Power Squadron course you will spend all of about 10 seconds on what a dive flag means. Good chance you will forget by the end of the class given all of the other flags, bouys and markers out there that you have to know and understand.

Even if you know what it means there is a good chance that you will miss a dive flag on a boat unless it is huge and obvious. Far too many pennants and flags hanging from boats - few pay attention to them as most are meaningless.

To expect boaters to understand and respect a dive flag is unrealistic - just not going to happen. Unfortunately divers have to keep themselves safe. Surface near the boat, if unable to do so shoot a bag - a big bag and keep your wits about you when surfacing anywhere where boat traffic is a possibility.

When piloting a boat seeing a diver in the water is all but impossible. As an example I managed to run over a 20 foot log last summer. I was going no more than 8knots, there was a light chop and I was paying attention. The log was waterlogged enough to be just barely floating and in line with the chop. I saw it, but far too late to do anything about it. A diver is a lot smaller and harder to see. If you are surfacing away from your boat assume that an approaching boat has not seen you, cannot see you and may change course at any moment directly for you.

 

[NudeDiver]

Worse still, at least the written drivers license test verifies that people know what a school zone sign looks like and what a crosswalk is and what the standard speed limits are for different types of roads.

Maybe. Maybe they missed those questions. You're allowed to miss so many questions that even a well-trained dog could past the test.

Besides which - a driver's license has nothing to do with demonstrating the ability to drive, let alone drive safely. It's little more than an identification card, whose primary purposes are to establish a people tracking system and to keep a certain segment of society from legally buying alcohol and tobacco.

 

[Saltwater Junky]

we should post the existing dive flag regulations (and fines for violations) on signs near docks, harbors, waterways, etc. where divers in the water are common. I'll be the first to admit how difficult that would be for Florida, given the how many miles there are of the intercoastal throughout the state.

That brings me back to my earlier point. If we can't test all the "boat drivers", at least we could test all the "boat owners". At least that would be something you could administer or test for at the time the boat was licensed. Then they would be responsible for whoever they loaned/leased/rented their boat to.

In addition to these....to purchase a fishing license or to rent a boat/pwc one must complete a Dive Flag Awareness quiz.

 

[DennisS]

We do have a requirement that boat owners have a license here. You might get asked what a dive flag is when tested, but you probably won't. If you take the Power Squadron course you will spend all of about 10 seconds on what a dive flag means. Good chance you will forget by the end of the class given all of the other flags, bouys and markers out there that you have to know and understand.

Even if you know what it means there is a good chance that you will miss a dive flag on a boat unless it is huge and obvious. Far too many pennants and flags hanging from boats - few pay attention to them as most are meaningless.

To expect boaters to understand and respect a dive flag is unrealistic - just not going to happen. Unfortunately divers have to keep themselves safe. Surface near the boat, if unable to do so shoot a bag - a big bag and keep your wits about you when surfacing anywhere where boat traffic is a possibility.

When piloting a boat seeing a diver in the water is all but impossible. As an example I managed to run over a 20 foot log last summer. I was going no more than 8knots, there was a light chop and I was paying attention. The log was waterlogged enough to be just barely floating and in line with the chop. I saw it, but far too late to do anything about it. A diver is a lot smaller and harder to see. If you are surfacing away from your boat assume that an approaching boat has not seen you, cannot see you and may change course at any moment directly for you.

I just went to the Blue Wild seminar and a representative of the FL DFG, who has been very helpful with the dive flag issue, gave a talk. They have a new radar that can measure distances down to inches. They set up a boat flying a dive flag and started writing tickets. The biggest offenders, DIVERS. It seems they like to go out and drive down the reef to their destination. He recommened for us divers to drive our boats a distance offshore, go down the direction you've chosen and then to cut in when you get to your spot, not drive down through other divers.

It's hard to claim ignorance when you have a dive flag aboard.

My own personal opinion is that they need to make float flags the same size as the boat flag and have a minimum distance above the water. Those little hanky flags about a foot above the water are impossible to see in any chop or glare.

 

[Chad Carney]

On line petitions have a feel good factor, but I don't think they accomplish anything.

I remember a sailboat on Molasses Reef. I cursed him harshly, and he was certainly close enough to hear me, but clueless. He's lucky I was unarmed, as he was within speargun range.

Well Don how would you know that? On-line dive flag petitions have never been done before! (I'm glad to hear you were able to get out of the way of a speeding sailboat!)

I can tell you... because only 150 people have signed up on-line so far to date... that's right only 150! I'm the volunteer who stuck his e-mail address everywhere on 2 major forums to try to tap the power of the internet.

If I had a signature for every whiner who sits back and does nothing but complain about boating laws, we'd have Charlie Crist on board already!

IT'S PRETTY DAMN APATHETIC!!!!!

I also asked the admins of these 2 forums to stick a sign-up banner on their home pages... but they did not.

We signed up 3 times as many at The Blue Wild Seminar in FT Lauderdale, maybe more because I don't have all of the petitions..
I'm doing a boat show in St Pete in the middle of March and I'll get a bunch again there!

Rob Murphy has been out there campaigning at TV stations, radio stations and The Blue Wild only a month after his injury. He's a beacon of optimism!

Dennis, Glad to hear you were at The Blue Wild too, it was great!
Remember the FWC has to enforce both sides of the issue, bad flags etc. At the meeting with Lt Bingham (FWC), none of the dive industry reps there agreed with his stats on that one. And now there's Joseph "Dean" Diver from Tavernier who's been injured too.

To my knowledge, so far nobody who's been killed or injured was inflicted by a diver. Not Ricky the Miami freediver 2 years ago, not Rob Murphy in January and not Joe "Dean" Diver in February.

The boating industry is hurting right now, like most of us.
Nobody is going to pass any laws on boating regulation any time soon.
Who would pay for it?

How about banding together and doing what can be done... go to a dive club meeting and talk about dive flag awareness. Go to a busy boat ramp on the weekend. Add a dive flag and a petition to your booth if you're in a dive show, boat show etc.

There will be new bumper stickers... put one on your car! Be proud to be a diver and save another diver!

Contact me or Scuba Works in Jupiter, FL.

Chad