Damn. You're in it too? Now who's gonna moderate it when it when it goes off track in the next 150 posts or so?
LOL how funny
History of Diver Training
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LOL how funny
I dunno Rob. 2 days may be pushing it, but I think 3 days is doable. Different people learn at different rates and I spent a lot of "down time" in my OW class waiting on other people to learn and demonstrate their skills.
When I did my OW class, we went to the pool one night a week, for 4-5 hours for a period of 4 weeks. The vast majority of the instructors time was not spent working with me and I think with more direct supervision I could have easily mastered all the skills in 4-6 hours. Well, except for the fact that I could hoover through a tank pretty fast, even in the shallow end.
Ditto on the class work. The first day we got our books I went through and read all the chapters and completed all the knowledge reviews on my own. From my perspective, the structured learning could have easily progressed at a much faster pace, but instead it was set by the slowest student.
Just because a class moves at a fast pace doesn't mean that it can't be thorough. And just because one is extended doesn't mean stuff can't get left out. Do I think that a 3 day class is appropriate for everyone? No. But that doesn't mean that it may not be appropriate for someone.
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There are "naturals" for whom a dive class is little more than a way to organize a body of knowledge and a set of skills, they'd likely do every bit as well if you just tossed them a decent manual and made a few hours of pool time available to try what they read.
Agreed. So should those people be required to sit through 4 weeks of class if they can demonstrate understanding and knowledge of material and skills in 3 days?
It's hard for me to say whether a class is appropriate or not just based on the length of it. If it's advertised as 3 days and everyone is pushed out and handed a cap, gown and diploma whether they learned anything or not, then no I don't think it is. If they walk out with proper skills and knowledge then it's fine. If the instructor extends the class for another two days to be sure everyone "gets it" when necessary, I think that's fine too.
But if I was an instructor teaching one of these classes I would make it clear up front that it's an accelerated class and may not be appropriate for everyone. Certification is earned not given, and that some people may require additional time/cost/work in order to earn the certification.
kanonfodr
Contributor
But even for us "Regular folks", a fairly intense 2-3 day course with a low student-instructor ratio can significantly improve one's diving ability, possibly to the point of mastery if the instructor is talented enough to pass along information to his/her students and the students are prepared to accept it.
I think it would be an interesting experiment to just toss a new diver straight into an Essentials or Fundies class with no prior study and see how apt they are to learning the information presented to them and improving in their diving.
Peace,
Greg
There may even be a benefit to the shorter classes. As I recall a good portion of our class time was spent reviewing the work from the previous week because some people couldn't seem to retain it from one week to the next.
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The fast learner is always a problem (and a pleasure). You need to have enough "top" on hand that you can keep handing them so that they are not wasting their time but are continuously improving their skills even though they are outpacing their fellow students.
Frankly I've never seen a course of 3 days where any but the most exceptional students "got it." But the I hold the "got it" bar up pretty high, at least at the level of "mastery" of all skills.
Hear! Hear!
No doubt. But here's the rub (and please let's not turn this into an agency thing, it has the chance of being an interesting discussion): If you take a short time frame and attempt to telescope down a rigid set of skills that must be taught in a rigid order, that are designed for a longer time frame and an instructor of just below average talent, is it any wonder if it doesn't work?
I have to agree, it's like Bob's (Grateful Diver) quote in my sig line.
That, I fear, is not a benefit to a shorter class; rather, it is a symptom of a poor instructor.
I've taken PADI courses in three decades, and I can honestly say I think the structure of the courses, availability of resources, and the depth of information are all greatly improved.
Unfortunately, some things not improved much are atrocious organizational skills, mediocre communication skills, an antiquated retail sales and marketing philosophy, intolerably slow follow up on questions, and a lack of general knowledge of education principles.
Sadly, the above weaknesses have been universal in my experience; however, my instructors have also been very competent divers.
Unfortunately, some things not improved much are atrocious organizational skills, mediocre communication skills, an antiquated retail sales and marketing philosophy, intolerably slow follow up on questions, and a lack of general knowledge of education principles.
Sadly, the above weaknesses have been universal in my experience; however, my instructors have also been very competent divers.
You're absolutely right. People learn at differrent rates. That's why the course is "performance based". How, then, can one get away with saying to students, "class starts on Friday and by Sunday morning you'll be a certified diver" to everyone who walks in the door?
See what I'm saying?
And what is a 3 day course? It's not allowed to do all 4 OW dives on one day so 2 of those three days are taken up by diving in OW. Since you can do OW dives 1 and 2 after module 3 (or 4?) then your 3 day diving course has a schedule like this:
Friday morning, class starts: A nice full group of happy smiling soon-to-be divers takes their place in the classroom. 8 fresh faces, 8 people who paid to be certified in 3 days. 8 people you promised to certify on Sunday.
8am: In the coming 5 hours you will get the book, go read it, answer all knowledge review questions, listen to everything the instructor needed to correct, do 4 quizzes and a final exam and listen to the corrections for that.
Richard had trouble with reading the book fast enough because his mother language is Spanish but the shop only had books in English. No worries, the instructor gives Richard all of the correct answers so he can sign off the theory. Richard secretly decides to buy the Spanish book and read it again when he gets home from vacation.
Sally also had trouble with the book. She's severely dyslexic and had trouble reading the book at the required tempo. However, Johan, the instructor, explained most of the things to her verbally, which she understood. There are guidelines for dealing with someone with a learning disability, which Johan interprets as telling Sally what to write down. He doesn't really have a choice because in the afternoon the theory has to be complete so they can do the confined dives.
Johan lables Bob the "difficult" student because Bob keeps asking questions. In frustration, Johan finally tells Bob that he'll answer his questions during the suface intervals. Bob is irritated but Johan has a schedule to keep and can't help it.
1pm: lunch
2pm: get gear go to confined water.
3pm: Brief all confined skills from modules 1,2 & 3
3:30pm get in the water. The briefing was ... brief ... and despite the confused looks from one or two of the students Johan says, don't worry if you don't understand everything, just watch the others.
Johan has to work alone but standards allow you to take 8 divers on your own in confined. Not having a DM means that Johan has to get everyone arranged in a big line. Johan likes long lines so he can run from right to left and then left to right ticking off skills like clock work.
First up is Sally. She "nails" all of the skills for module 1 on her first try. Good for her. No time to repeat them to see if they're "fluid & repeatable" or if it was just luck. Johan is happy with this early success.
Richard has a little trouble with the mask skill. He's exhaling through his mouth. Johan blocks the exhaust-tee with with thumb and forefinger so Richard is forced to exhale though his nose. It worked! Big high-five for Richard. Let's hope it sunk in.
and so on and so on.
Peter has lot of trouble with removing and replacing the mask. Johan has seen this a thousand times before. Peter inhales a small amount of water each time and then starts coughing. Johan doesn't have much time to solve this problem so when Peter takes his mask off he pinches his nose shut so Peter can do the 60 second no-mask breathing without drowning. At exactly 60 seconds Johan moves Peter's hand to his nose so he can pinch his own nose shut while he tries to get the mask back on. Peter gets the mask on but starts to cough again. No problem. It will come... big high-five for Peter. At least he was able to clear his mask.
7pm: pool sessions complete with some "residual" problems. Tomorrow morning the check out dives start.
Saturday:
8am: Go to the shop and get gear
9:30am: After a very brief "briefing", our happy divers start with confined dive 1. Of the 10 students, Jenny and Peter have buoyancy control problems.
Jenny was vastly overweighted because she has a big butt, to which the instructor strapped an anchor full of lead, and now she's ploughing through the bottom with her fins and unable to get up into anything remotely resembling neutral swimming. No worries though, she's getting big happy "OKs" from her instructor who is just happy that she's able to move forward at all.
Peter is a corker. He too has a weightbelt which is much too heavy but in his attempts to get off the bottom he keeps putting too much air into the BCD. He's holding the button for too long but doesn't realize it because in the one lap of the pool he swam the day before the instructor helped him with the vest. Also the pool was a nice uniform 2.5m deep and he didn't change depths at all while (sort of) swimming.
the 6 other students are following around behind Peter and Jenny with mixed expressions of amazement on their faces..... they're obviously having fun.... right? Johan is swimming out in front of the group satisfied with their progress.
OW dive 2:
Peter, who had the mask problem yesterday, gets a new chance today. The divers make a nice line, kneeling shoulder to shoulder, on a flat sandy part of the bottom and Johan starts with ticking off the skills.
When he gets to Peter it goes wrong. Peter tried to put a little water in his mask but over-did it and flooded it above his eyes. His breathing gets rapid and he's suddenly not so sure of himself anymore because of the problem he had in the pool yesterday. He tries to clear his mask but it's not working. The salt water is making him seize up. He tries again and again and only small amounts of air come out of his nose.... then it happens. He inhales instead of exhaling and takes on a throat full of water and starts to cough. His instincts take over. He pushes up off the bottom and starts clawing his way to the surface. GET ME OUT OF HERE!!! Johan jumps on him, of course. Johan has a lot of experience dealing with panicked divers (hint hint) so this is almost a routine problem. After getting Peter calmed down and returning to the bottom Johan rushes to get the skills done for the other divers. He only has about 20 minutes to get all of the skills done before people start to get low on air. Peter goes last and Johan lets the water in his mask for him. Only a few drops, not above the nose but just enough so Peter can feel that there is water in the mask. Johan knows that Peter needs a success after his panic so Peter's mask skill gets ticked off after clearing a few drops of water.
1pm : lunch
2pm: back to the pool
2:30pm after a breif breifing it starts again. Get in the water, go go go. Modules 4 and 5 get "ticked off" in the conventional manner. This pool session went really well and Johan had 10 minutes of spare time at the end where the divers could actually swim around and try doing things like "nailing" their neutral buoyancy.
Next morning:
8am: Go to the shop and get gear
9:30am: After a very brief "briefing", our happy divers start with confined dives 3 and 4. Jenny and Peter are still having buoyancy control problems but they aren't as severe as yesterday. Johan is pleased, once again with the progress.
Today Peter has to remove his mask and replace it. it's the last thing he has to do before certification but the charter is already booked and they leave tomorrow so it will happen to day. It must.
The skills go relatively well on the whole.... Yeah... well... relatively well, that is. Sally took too long getting into the hover and it didn't look very tight but Johan didn't have time to work on it with her so ik OK'd it.
Jenny's CESA was far to quick but there's nothing in the standards about the speed at which it needs to be done, only that it had to be done on one breath, which she managed.
Richard had never used a compass before but fortunately the compass navigation skill was easy. Vizibility was good and even though Richard swam in a big 1/2 circle on the way out, when Johan asked him to turn around he could still see the group waiting for him so he knew where to go to get back.
There were some other minor problems too but you know how it goes.
The last OW dive. The mask skill. Johan was secretly a little worried about Peter but he had briefed him on how they were going to do this skill. Johan told Peter that he must pinch his nose shut as soon as the mask was off and this time Peter was told to hold his breath until the mask was back on. It was a little "shortcut" Johan learned from a colleague but it worked. Almost everyone with Peter's problem could do the mask R&R in OW like this.
Lo and behold. It worked. Peter got the mask off and then back on again without any hitches! Johan was proud of how efficiently he could teach this and Peter was just happy it was over.
All 8 of our divers were tired at the end of the last dive and were certified back at the shop in time for the departure of their liveaboard trip.
Sure there were some small issues.... but with a few dives it will all work out.
.... 2 years later ....
Sally was a natural in the water and despite not learning the theory very well she went on to become a very skilled diver. She learned most of the theory after the fact from ScubaBoard - Scuba Forums, Articles, Dive Buddies, Social Network - Equipment and Travel and took another live-aboard trip a year after the first one where she did the AOW course with one of Johan's colleagues.
Richard did, in fact, read the book once he got back to Spain and took his advanced course from a club in his area. He's an active local diver but needed a lot of "mentoring"
Jenny didn't take to diving. During the live aboard trip following her OW course she never felt completely at ease and injured herself by grabbing onto a fire coral with both hands to steady herself. Johan never mentioned fire coral... ! From the pain she lost buoyancy control and crashed onto the reef, where she cut her leg and ended up leaving the water crying. She made 2 dives and then spent the rest of the trip on deck enjoying the sun. She still snorkels.
Peter never did master his mask skill. During the first live aboard trip things went ok but he was very careful to never let any water in his mask. This year he was planning on taking another live-aboard trip with Sally but decided against it after taking a scuba-review and finally realizing that if water *did* get in his mask he could die. Peter is considering stopping diving. At a recent party someone asked him if he could scuba dive and Peter said, "no, but I have one of those cards."
Oh and Bob. Bob finally learned about buoyancy control in DIR fundamentals and now writes only cynical things about the sad state of training on the internet.
R..
OP
I wasn't really limiting it to any one type of training Sas. I put this in the advanced discussion area, so as to get an understanding of how people feel about the training they have received. I suppose it's directed to divers who may have been certified years ago and have the experience of seeing their sons and daughters take a course, or instructors that have been around awhile and their impression of the direction that training has taken.
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