History of Diver Training

[DCBC]

Actually, I think this is the crux of the problem. Standards are just a list of skills but "delivery" is in the hands of instructors.

Yes, but what the instructor is allowed to deliver is in the hand of some agencies.

I see from your last posts that you seem to object to people making money from training.

No, but I do object when money becomes more important than student education.

I never took you as the anti establishment hippy type but maybe I have to re-think that... LOL Just the thought of you running around with tie-dyed "Peace" t-shirt with a picture of Karl Marx on the back is amusing in itself.

LOL That would be funny! Actually, I'm wearing a well worn t from the USN Experimental Diving Unit. It doesn't scream peace or Karl Marx.

 

[seaducer]

But isn't that how the real world treats everybody? I read somewhere that "not all humans are created equal, but we should act as if they are" (paraphrasing).

Maybe I am giving out a very narrow minded point of view because I am no instructor or teacher and I am just seeing things from the student point of view, with mostly my own experiences as a frame of reference. And I'm trying to project that to everybody else.

Interesting. I am not sure how regular school relates to dive training, but interesting.

One of the problems I am seeing is the "No child left behind" stuff, and the nobody fails attitude that seems to be everywhere. "No child left behind" sounded great when I was optimistic, and thought it meant we would work harder to help those who struggle to succeed. Instead, we simply lowered the standards so that anyone can pass.

Case in point, while I have a great career, I decided to go to college now that the online classrooms are everywhere. In short, Monday is my last day of class for the foreseeable future, and in the last 18 months I have:

• purchased books only when absolutely required (about 4)
• written end of term papers in about 6 hours, off the top of my head, and citing outside sources only when that was a requirement for the grade
• learned nothing
• passed with flying colors.

I was after an education, not a degree. These things are worthless if my experience is the norm.

To bring this around, I do think many dive agencies (including the one most attacked, and I tend to defend) are more interested in supplying c-cards, not training. I do not fault the agency, this is how everything is being done these days. In my experience my instructors have made up for things, but an unmotivated individual has no need to attempt to achieve anything above the minimum standard, everywhere in life.

I am so tired of living in society where mediocrity is encouraged.:depressed:

 

[Slamfire]

You can't say that the student is the one responsible, as s/he is not in control, nor do they have the knowledge to know what is required.

I believe nature is a great equalizer. We are all equally responsible to carry our own weight or suffer the consequences of not doing so. This may sound harsh or callous, but if a student is not capable of recognizing that something is not quite right his skills or training -- in spite of what the C-Card says -- he will have a higher probability of winning the Darwin award. These are not my rules, it's natural selection.

Now, I fully agree with what seaducer says about not agencies not spitting out "accidents waiting to happen", simply because the numbers don't point out in that direction. But he brings a very valid point in that we are polluting the oceans with less than capable divers and this does have an environmental impact. Also, neither do I think scuba is as safe or safer than bowling, unless I've been watching the wrong kind of bowling all this time.

Let me try to illustrate with a personal experience: I got through basic nitrox. At that point I had very little knowledge of mixed gases because training designed in the 60's did not contemplate them. I was taught that %CNS is cumulative throughout repetitive and that I was not to factor in any credits for surface intervals. But then I note that, my computer does give me some credit for surface interval. So on my own and without intervention of an instructor I start doing research about it. It turns out that there is a half-life to accumulated O₂. It just so turns out that in the course of my quest to find the answer, I also find out about other things not taught in the course. For instance the time-dose relationship of exposure to higher ppO₂. Now I find that I will not certainly die if go to a 1.61 ppO₂ for one minute. I learn that in fact it could be more risky to spend 40 minutes at 1.4 ppO₂ than 5 mins at 1.6. I get a little annoyed that basic bits of easy information like this has been kept away from me. This further heightens my awareness that if I want to be truly proficient I need to go beyond formal education.

By the time I get to take the Adv Nitrox course, I already know how to use the NOAA oxygen exposure table and like it better than the adaptation the agency did for the basic nitrox course.

I think that if you keep your eyes and mind open and you commit yourself to scuba for more than just diving during your yearly vacation, anybody should be able to recognize their own deficiencies and should strive to alleviate them. If they are unable to recognize it, then we have a candidate for the Darwin award. If they recognize it and don't alleviate them once they are aware, then they should be the very first ones to get the blame, not the instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

... I am so tired of living in society where mediocrity is encouraged.:depressed:

and where "elite" is a pejorative adjective.

 

[seaducer]

I believe nature is a great equalizer.

I could not disagree more. We as a species have taken natural selection out of the equation. I can not say I feel this is entirely a bad thing either, but there are certain drawbacks to it.

I think that if you keep your eyes and mind open and you commit yourself to scuba for more than just diving during your yearly vacation, anybody should be able to recognize that their own deficiencies and should strive to alleviate them. If they are unable to recognize it, then we have a candidate for the Darwin award. If they recognize it and don't alleviate them once they are aware, then they should be the very first ones to get the blame, not the instructor.

I definately agree with this. Even the most stringent standards taught and graded by the most diligent instructors mean nothing if the student does not continue to practice and learn after the class is over.

The flip side to that is they have to be made aware of their deficencies first.

 

[DCBC]

My point is that in the time the student learns something that was omitted from the training program, they could get hurt. If the instructor didn't withhold pertinent information and skill-sets, it could have been prevented.

I liken some OW training programs to driving instruction; here's your driver's license, if you like, come back on the advanced and we'll introduce you to stop signs.... What happens if they don't come back? You have a bunch of licensed drivers, driving around not knowing what a stop sign is. Yes, they may figure it out for themselves, but why wasn't the first program more inclusive??? ...Well actually we figured out we could make more money by dividing up the program into modules.

 

[Thalassamania]

I could not disagree more. We as a species have taken natural selection out of the equation. I can not say I feel this is entirely a bad thing either, but there are certain drawbacks to it.


I definately agree with this. Even the most stringent standards taught and graded by the most diligent instructors mean nothing if the student does not continue to practice and learn after the class is over.

The flip side to that is they have to be made aware of their deficencies first.

Students need to be taught to continue to practice and learn after the class is over, they need to be taught how to do it. They should not have any deficiencies when certified (isn't that what certification is supposed to mean?

 

[Diver0001]

Diving is easy and fun until some shlub swims over the top of you and kicks your mask off.

Diving is easy fun until that rental tank (that the kid in the shop forgot the dip tube for) plugs with a piece of debris, instantly cutting off all air supply.

Diving is fun and easy until that other person didn't watch thier air supply, sucked thier tank dry and then mauls you for the reg in your mouth.

Diving is fun and easy until the current suddenly picks up, turning a nice dive into a battle to make it back to the mooring line.

Yep, youre right. No place at all for training divers to deal with emergencies.

This post is such unadulterated bullsht. I don't know what makes people think that training for problems and/or emergencies has to be heavy and difficult but it's such a crock.

When you take a first aid course or CPR is it laden with doom and gloom and someone harping at you like a drill sergeant?

No.

Sheesh. Training can be effective AND fun. Some of the old timers just evidently lost the ability to have fun and think because they have forgotten how to "play" that the world should be devoid of it.

R..

 

[seaducer]

Fair enough, what I was thinking when I wrote the above post was skills such as bouyancy control, need to be practiced in order to become/remain proficient. For example someone good enough to pass DIR/F, but doesn't dive again for 2 years will no longer reflect what they learned or had to demonstrate in order to pass.

Knowledge wise, there is simply no way I could have absorbed all that I currently know about diving (which more and more looks like a list of what I still need to learn) in any practicle OW class. There is just a limit, and an active diver continues to learn more and more as their diving progresses.

Obviously a full time class such as what is given to military divers and scientists can do the above, I am restricting my thoughts to recreational SCUBA only here.

 

[seaducer]

This post is such unadulterated . I don't know what makes people think that training for problems and/or emergencies has to be heavy and difficult but it's such a crock.

When you take a first aid course or CPR is it laden with doom and gloom and someone harping at you like a drill sergeant?

There are merits to such training styles, and they have their place, even in recreational activities such as dive training. I would restrict them however to very specialized classes and extreme diving such as cave or very deep or wreck penetration, not to basic dive training.

FWIW I am related to some paramedics, volunteer and paid professional, and they do get ripped up in their classes, and even more so in drills. The watered down Red Cross courses don't really prepare people for traumatic events IMHO, and are more or less a waste of time. YMMV