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Reason for a LDS to run classes is to teach diving and make a profit doing it.Competition keeps course fees low.


I didn't want to take up the space quoting the entire post. 5050...I like the way you stated this. My earlier "rant" was based on the earlier post that made it sound like the customer owed the LDS his business. I have worked with the public far too long to think they owe me anything. The LDS must find a way to compete with the online markets. This is not exclusive to diving. All brick and mortar establishments that sell a tangible product must do this. For the LDS to stay in business they must offer something that can't be got online. Be it the pool time you mentioned (I love that), no shipping wait, or just the face to face time to answer questions. Please don't get me wrong, I love my LDS. They have given me sooooo much guidance in my new hobby and I am very appreciative. Approximately 66% of the money I have spent on gear has gone to my LDS. The local store owners will have to become more imaginative and daring to keep the customers in this online world. Happy Diving.
 
While these are some good points, it is not the consumer's responsibility to fix a broken business model at the dive shop. Just because an LDS chooses to give cut rate pricing on classes in the hopes of making that up with gear sales is no reason the consumer should pay extra just for buying in the shop. Now, going in and asking for fit help and further information then buying online or somewhere else is rude, but that still doesn't preclude the shop from changing their business model.

This being my point, I think the consumer has become almost a monster. They expect freebies, hand outs, asking for private info, cutting in line. I am not saying the consumer should fix a broken business model, as the market place with fix it. But I think we have become a society of asking for everything and expecting not to pay a price for it.
 
While these are some good points, it is not the consumer's responsibility to fix a broken business model at the dive shop. Just because an LDS chooses to give cut rate pricing on classes in the hopes of making that up with gear sales is no reason the consumer should pay extra just for buying in the shop. Now, going in and asking for fit help and further information then buying online or somewhere else is rude, but that still doesn't preclude the shop from changing their business model.

So what you are suggesting is that a realistic price should be set for a scuba class.
Supply EVERYTHING for the course and charge what it cost to get it done.
So for academics-confined water and the 4 ow training dives what is a good price?
A number I can come up with is somewhere between $850.-$1,000, for a entry level ow course. Not too many people will go for that ,especially if the guy on the other side of town gives it away for $300. It is certainly not the consumers responsibility to fix a broken business model.It also is not the LDS/instructor responsibility to teach people who are customers of an unseen online company for next to nothing.
If this was to happen diving is a dying activity.
 
It sounds that the classes are the lose leader of the diving shop????? As I believe Walmarts is toys?? Broke business model, I don't think so. Just the cost of doing business. I think the break down may be some of us are in business for ourselves and some of us receive a pay check from a company. Both of our groups will never agree on whats right, the right price, how much mark up is fair (mark up is going to be different for each store, based on rent, and all the other expenses). I can't even guessamate the cost of insurance in the diving industry. I know how much my insurance is I would not want to have to pay yours. As I said before, I think we consumers have become almost like leaches. I think we are all guilty of being a comsumer leach at some point, just some take it to more of an extreme. Just some of us need to be pimp slapped more ofter than others. :wink:

Just as a side note: I have noticed that my customers (costomers) as there is a difference, that may of them do not understand about the bills that need to be paid with the money that I make, nor should they. But, they act as if I even make one penny off of anything I am raping them. They collect a paycheck for food and living, why should I do without for their pleasure. Off my soap box now.
 
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So what you are suggesting is that a realistic price should be set for a scuba class.
Supply EVERYTHING for the course and charge what it cost to get it done.
So for academics-confined water and the 4 ow training dives what is a good price?
A number I can come up with is somewhere between $850.-$1,000, for a entry level ow course. Not too many people will go for that ,especially if the guy on the other side of town gives it away for $300. It is certainly not the consumers responsibility to fix a broken business model.It also is not the LDS/instructor responsibility to teach people who are customers of an unseen online company for next to nothing.
If this was to happen diving is a dying activity.

It's plain and simple economics. One of the first problems of the diving business is that diving is attractive and people are willing to work for peanuts. That's just the way it is, this will never change. I see a lot of DM's working for no wage, just their dives and some tips. Compare it to doing some very dirty work, if you had to do it, you'd want to be paid higher than for normal work. Same goes, if the work is attractive, people are willing to work for less money. Or to put it this way: a lot of people are willing to work as a dive guide, but not a lot of people are willing to work as a coalminer. Hence you get low wages for dive guides and higher wages for coalminers. Now, if you run a business it's hard to compete with this. A lot of people are willing to run a course at about cost. So you have to be competitive and you can't really set a price much higher than the others. (except for some niche markets... e.g GUE)

So how are we going to make money then? By selling gear and doing repairs/service equipment. So a pair of jetfins is a pair of jetfins... Identical goods, so you can't ask a higher price than online shops because it's an identical product. What you can do, is ask a higher price because you can offer advice, they can view the article, fit it,... But there is a limit to this and that's the problem. Internet shops are forcing the margins down (making it cheaper for us). So the 'bad' businesses that cannot compete will go down, the 'good' ones will survive. Say you have 5 shops in one region. 2 go broke, then the other 3 might be able to up their sales enough to survive and make a decent living.

So the problem of the diving shops is the competition... Competition of internet shops, instructors and other dive shops in the neighbourhood. The diving industry is a very attractive industry and there will always be lots of competition. It is not the task of the consumer to keep their LDS in business. It is the task of the business to offer a good value for the consumer, so the customer spends it money there. If it doesn't it will go out of business, plain and simple.

But the nice thing about the economy is that it is self regulating. It is harsh, but fair...
 
Everything "NAICK" writes on this issue is so true!! This is why we offer price matching of any AUTHORIZED retailers price, and sometimes unauthorized dealer price too.. Also why we offer free use of our onsite heated pool at any time for testing equipment repairs/service that we had done, and use of pool for customers that purchase their gear here. I would think that makes the deal better than what a online vendor can offer.
 
Everything "NAICK" writes on this issue is so true!! This is why we offer price matching of any AUTHORIZED retailers price, and sometimes unauthorized dealer price too.. Also why we offer free use of our onsite heated pool at any time for testing equipment repairs/service that we had done, and use of pool for customers that purchase their gear here. I would think that makes the deal better than what a online vendor can offer.

Yes that's exactly what I mean. It's all about 'added value'. You won't be able to compete with online vendors on a price basis. They can work al lower margins because they sell higher volumes and generally have less fixed costs.

But the thing that strikes me the most is the people that blame other people for buying from online vendors. It's a free world. If people aren't buying from your store or not enough to keep it alive, clearly you are doing something wrong, not me. I usually buy second hand or from online shops. I live in Belgium, but I buy most of my stuff online in England, the lower Euro-pound exchange rate makes it a lot cheaper for me. I save about 40%, sometimes even more compared to local dive shops. I have to admit, I'm very price sensitive, I'm still a student so I don't really have that much money to spare. But even if I had, a 40% difference wouldn't be warranted by any kind of service. I only buy stuff in local shops if I really have to fit it. Like wetsuit boots and an undersuit and smaller stuff like boltsnaps.

You could argue that I can't obtain fills online. Well, we have a small compressor here so that's not an issue. My stepfather and me both dive. If we but the money together we saved by buying online and the cost of fills arround here then we are still ahead so...
 
Yes that's exactly what I mean. It's all about 'added value'. You won't be able to compete with online vendors on a price basis. They can work al lower margins because they sell higher volumes and generally have less fixed costs.

But the thing that strikes me the most is the people that blame other people for buying from online vendors. It's a free world. If people aren't buying from your store or not enough to keep it alive, clearly you are doing something wrong, not me. I usually buy second hand or from online shops. I live in Belgium, but I buy most of my stuff online in England, the lower Euro-pound exchange rate makes it a lot cheaper for me. I save about 40%, sometimes even more compared to local dive shops. I have to admit, I'm very price sensitive, I'm still a student so I don't really have that much money to spare. But even if I had, a 40% difference wouldn't be warranted by any kind of service. I only buy stuff in local shops if I really have to fit it. Like wetsuit boots and an undersuit and smaller stuff like boltsnaps.

You could argue that I can't obtain fills online. Well, we have a small compressor here so that's not an issue. My stepfather and me both dive. If we but the money together we saved by buying online and the cost of fills arround here then we are still ahead so...

I would not bother to argue about fills online. You are fortunate to have access to a compressor. But to own one and maintain/operate it cost $$. Usually much less expensive to go to a store and have it filled there. Most people would balk at setting up a fill station that takes up space and cost anywhere from $2,500 to $10,000.Dive shops do not make money off air fills after paying for-maintaining-electric use-employee pay-insurance-rent money paid for space fill station occupies-etc...The reality is most LDS really do not care if a customer goes to a competitor for air fills. LDS keep a compressor to fill their own tanks for classes and to bring in business.
Very difficult to make money off a compressor just filling air..Nitrox and mix fills are another matter, but still not a big income for the investment involved..
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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