Have you ever considered the risk??

[jbd]

Having read through much, but not all, of a thread about buddy liability; I got to wondering if anyone has considered what the risks are in attempting a rescue of a fully panicked person in the water?

I'll set a scenario for point of discussion.

Two OW certified divers(no other certifications are held by either diver)
Their depth is 80 fsw.
Visibility is 50 to 60 feet.
The pair are lets say 20 feet apart.
One diver is looking at moray eel , while the other diver is looking at a clown fish when he or she runs out of air(why, how or what caused the OOA is not at issue here, the simple fact is the diver is OOA)
The OOA diver goes into a full blown panic. In the initial moment the OOA diver doesn't spot the buddy and goes into a full blown panic. At this point the diver looking at the moray eel looks for his buddy and sees the full blown panic going on.

Now here is the question for discussion, Keep in mind this is not about morals or ethics or legality. Just how safe do you think it is for the buddy to approach and attempt a rescue of the panicked OOA diver?

 

[JodiBB]

First of all...what are 2 non-certified divers doing at 80 fsw? That seems unfathomable to me, but not impossible. They don't have even basic training to know how to do a CESA or anything else. They would easily get caught up with the panicked diver and most likely both would be injured.

However....

I would give the vaguest answer of "it depends." Someone once told me if you can swing around to the backside of the diver and grab their tank, they cannot move. If this is an option, then you can stabilize them while feeding them you air source (whether that be your 2nd stage or octo)...

If they are flailling too much, then grabbing their tank for stabilization and dropping their weights and inflating their BC will at least force them upwards.

However, depending on the amount of panic, if neither situation would seem plausible, I honestly don't know what I'd do...I've worked with people with panic attacks and in the midst of one, they could inadvertently hurt you. I think I'd just have to assess the situation case-by-case and determine what's going to be best for both of us with the least injury...which is why I started with "it depends."

 

[wcl]

Hi,

There is definitely risk in attempting to aid or interact with any panicked creature (human or otherwise; on land, on water, or under water).

These risks are mitigated by training in how to assess and manage the situation ==> Various programs such as PADI Rescue Diver training.

A key aspect of all aid or rescue training is the understanding and assessment of the risk to the rescuers.

Cheers,
Walter

 

[jbd]

First of all...what are 2 non-certified divers doing at 80 fsw? That seems unfathomable to me, but not impossible. They don't have even basic training to know how to do a CESA or anything else. They would easily get caught up with the panicked diver and most likely both would be injured.

Please note that in the scenario both divers are OW certified.

 

[jbd]

Hi,

There is definitely risk in attempting to aid or interact with any panicked creature (human or otherwise; on land, on water, or under water).

These risks are mitigated by training in how to assess and manage the situation ==> Various programs such as PADI Rescue Diver training.

A key aspect of all aid or rescue training is the understanding and assessment of the risk to the rescuers.

Cheers,
Walter

Neither of the divers in the given scenario are rescue certified by any agency. How safe do you think it is for the buddy to attempt a rescue in the scenario given?

 

[divenutny]

How safe is it to attempt a rescue of an OOA diver? Most likely, not very safe. But it depends on many things. Such as how is the panicked diver reacting, level of experience of both divers, level of training, etc. Also, how will the diver react to assistance, attack or calm down once they get air.

I knew before I became dive rescue trained that any situation can be dangerous to me and the victim. I will attempt a rescue depending on the situation. There is no one solution other than my safety first, victim second. Take action to resolve the immediate issue without becoming the second victim. May sound self centered, but how can you help if you become part of the problem.

Tom

 

[NorthWoodsDiver]

This is the point where you either choose to live or die, I let them save themselves at this point. Of course all this could be avoided if both divers had redundant air sources, proper training, level heads, and quality equipment... Oh and maybe they could monitor their gas on occasion. Just my O2 but I am not gonna die for a panicked buddy.

 

[TSandM]

I think there are major risks in the scenario presented. It's something to be avoided at all costs, which is part of the reason why I promote buddy checks and good dive and gas planning for everybody.

As with each time a question like this is asked, it will come down to the individual weighing his sense of moral obligation against his willingness to assume risk. Since I have an intense feeling of moral obligation to my dive buddy (I feel that getting in the water with someone as an identified buddy is a form of social contract) AND I am very risk averse for myself, I have taken the steps of getting Rescue training AND going back and playing victim for Rescue classes, to renew that training. I've also trained hard on managing emergency scenarios, and I dive mostly with people who do the same.

 

[wcl]

Ummm ... "Not safe", hence the need for the training ...

There is very limited training in OW cert courses for dealing with an OOA diver under controlled circumstances (the OOA diver is under self-control, and requesting aid). There is no training for aid to a panicked diver.

Same goes for a swimmer rescue in pool, or aiding a person running around on fire. If you don't know what you are doing, it is dangerous. Heck, if you are trained, it there is still risk.



Do you have or teach rescue training? Your sig notes you are an instructor ...

-- W

Neither of the divers in the given scenario are rescue certified by any agency. How safe do you think it is for the buddy to attempt a rescue in the scenario given?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wcl
Hi,

There is definitely risk in attempting to aid or interact with any panicked creature (human or otherwise; on land, on water, or under water).

These risks are mitigated by training in how to assess and manage the situation ==> Various programs such as PADI Rescue Diver training.

A key aspect of all aid or rescue training is the understanding and assessment of the risk to the rescuers.

Cheers,
Walter
Neither of the divers in the given scenario are rescue certified by any agency. How safe do you think it is for the buddy to attempt a rescue in the scenario given?
__________________
NAUI Instructor PSI Cylinder Inspector
Buoyancy control specialist
Buoyancy Control and Breathing Control are conjoined twins that cannot be seperated without both dying---Uncle Pug

 

[irishsquid]

We all like to think we know exactly what we would do in an emergency, however; unless you practice for the "what ifs", even just mentally, there is always going to be a pucker factor. There is an inherent danger anytime a person in panic is approached as the fight or flight "instinct" will eventually override training at the end. (There are a few who will stick with the training & go down with the ship) For the OP scenario, my dive buddy is my brother, we're are both prior Navy with the same training, best friends and fairly cool, level headed operators. We are usually on the same wavelength, but even IF the scenario was to happen, the attempted rescue in my opinion is safer than the resulting non-rescue. I'm thinking the worst that could happen is: He grabs my 7' hose out of my hand (I'm on my necklaced reg), he power inflates his BC and tries to drag me up with him, knocking my mask off (so what), etc. In an OOA, if you can just hold them off long enough for them to realize they are breathing OK, it will "usually" come out in the wash.
JodiBB says it accurately though, "It depends".