Have regulators improved lately??

[reefrat]

I have been using Apeks regs for the past 7 years and have become a bit of a devotee, my current is a TX100...great reg!

Having started diving in the early eighties I remember regs that didn't breath so well!

Last week I was away from home and the opportunity for a dive popped up so I hired a set of diving gear for the first time ever (because I'm very particular about gear and like my own)
The reg was a new model Aqualung Titan, I would consider it a "base" model- plain jane downstream unbalanced second stage etc.

Surprise Surprise...it breathed really well, smooth, comfortable and low bubble noise.

Frankly it was a bit of a shock, I had come to think that only a top of the line reg like the Apeks would be good enough but I had to admit I could dive with this reg and be perfectly happy with it.

Have regs improved generally so that the difference between a base model like this and a more expensive reg has diminished?

In particular the low bubble noise made me wonder if diving with a Titan (XLC) might improve my macro photography?

I'm a reformed regulator snob!!!!!!

 

[Diesel298]

well short answer is yes. better materals meching, and performance.
but there have been no astonishing breakthrus im aware of, just improvements on existing designs

 

[rescuediver009]

I think that there hav been certain advances in the piston market but not so much in the diaphragms:

The newest thing with the diaphragms I think is the dry environmental seal with the overbalancing, which as you know is not very new.

The newest thing with the flow-by piston is the dry bleed system by sherwood which I am sure you are aware is not at all new.

On the flow through piston front though there are a couple of new innovations. Because cold water diving is becoming increasingly popular, makers of these regs (i.e. - scubapro) are trying to make their regs coldwater capable. Advancements include different coatings of the piston and other components that are exposed to the environment. Most recently though has come the technology of environmentally sealing the flowthrough piston reg. I know what you are thinking, atomics has already done this. Well there is now a dry sealed system like the apeks available on flow through piston regs. See it at www.dynamodiving.com I think that is about it for new stuff...

 

[reefrat]

Yes there dosen't seem to have been any major breakthroughs in reg design, particularly first stages.

I guess that why I was a bit surprised by the fuss free and smooth delivery of air by the Titan reg..I expected more cracking resistance.
It's not that the delivery of air was better than I'm used to...the TX (and ATX) regs I have owned are all brilliant- I just expected to notice a big difference with the Titan, and I didn't!

And that exhaust tee definetely seemed to break up the bubbles so that my exhalations sounded quieter. The TX100 has a relatively wide exhaust tee and keeps bubbles out of my line of sight, but they seem bigger and noisier (all fairly subjective I know).
When your sneeking up on a timid photo subject the bubbles can sound like a V8 with a hole in the muffler!

 

[jfoutz]

Have regs improved generally so that the difference between a base model like this and a more expensive reg has diminished?

No way. Breath a high end Apeks, Atomic, or Poseidon and then breath a mainstream reg like a Mares at 100 feet. HUGE difference.

there dosen't seem to have been any major breakthroughs in reg design, particularly first stages.

Look at the design of a Poseidon Xstream first stage. Ball bearing seat, cold water ready without some sort of cap or sealing system, etc.

 

[jonnythan]

No way. Breath a high end Apeks, Atomic, or Poseidon and then breath a mainstream reg like a Mares at 100 feet. HUGE difference.

Look at the design of a Poseidon Xstream first stage. Ball bearing seat, cold water ready without some sort of cap or sealing system, etc.

I've never used Mares regs on my tanks, but several of my buddies do. My experience during air share drills is that they breathe exceptionally well, even at depth.. and most everything I've heard about them confirms this.

Of course, compare a balanced reg like an ATX200 to an unbalanced reg at 100 feet will reveal dramatic differences every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Saying that Mares regs are "mainstream" and therefore don't breathe as well as Atomic regs is folly.

As for my own experience, most regs breathe pretty well unless they're desperately out of tune, or it's an unbalanced reg deeper than 60 feet.

 

[aquaoren]

No way. Breath a high end Apeks, Atomic, or Poseidon and then breath a mainstream reg like a Mares at 100 feet. HUGE difference.

Look at the design of a Poseidon Xstream first stage. Ball bearing seat, cold water ready without some sort of cap or sealing system, etc.

This is simply BS.
I have a Mares Abyss, Apeks DS4/ATX50, a poseidon Jetstream and dove a Scubapro MK20/G250 for an extended period. The Mares isn't inferior to the above named regs, if anything it's even better.
Bad beyond 100ft? I don't think so: http://www.mares.com/NS_NewsView.asp?news=55
May I ask you what experience you have with Mares that made you think this way? Just curious.

 

[Greg Barlow]

No way. Breath a high end Apeks, Atomic, or Poseidon and then breath a mainstream reg like a Mares at 100 feet. HUGE difference.

Look at the design of a Poseidon Xstream first stage. Ball bearing seat, cold water ready without some sort of cap or sealing system, etc.

I beg to differ about the Mares regs. I own (and dive with) several different regs, including Apeks, AquaLung, and Mares. I've mixed regs on my doubles and subjectively evaluated their performance at depths in the 100-130' range. I actually can't tell a difference in the WOB or in the stability of the higher end models. If we throw helium based mixes into the equation at depths deeper than that, the difference is even less of an issue. When I hear individuals describing reg performance while diving deep on air, I hold the same confidence as when I hear drunks talking about pink elephants.

When I worked at Rodale's we would run all the regs through an ANSTI simulator. Any reg that could meet or beat the Navy Class "A" standards could easily meet the needs of a diver. BTW, our tests, along with other independent testing clearly demonstrated that divers couldn't accurately tell the difference in a reg until the WOB difference was at least 0.4 J/L.

I've been diving for more than 29 years, and have used and serviced many different regs. I have found that most divers believe that the brand they choose to purchase is "among the best". Not too many of us want to think that we made a poor buying decision.

A reg that delivers stable, predictable gas flow at a rate of 75 liters per minute is pretty tough to criticize. Several of Mares's regs can meet this demand, as can my Apeks and AquaLung regs.

Poseidon regs were long touted to be among the best...They were at one time, and are still a quality product. The Xstream is better than the other models at offering natural breathing, but the JetStream has a well documented pattern of having a "trap door" on gas delivery. I have used them, and find the gas delivery to be very unnatural. One of the big reasons why they were so prevalent years ago was that not many other regs could deliver the flow that they were capable of.

Today, I wouldn't hesitate to use any quality reg from a major manufacturer. If it meets Class "A" standards that is....

As an individual working in the science realms for 25 years, I trust objective testing.

Greg Barlow

 

[halocline]

Of course, compare a balanced reg like an ATX200 to an unbalanced reg at 100 feet will reveal dramatic differences every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Saying that Mares regs are "mainstream" and therefore don't breathe as well as Atomic regs is folly.

As for my own experience, most regs breathe pretty well unless they're desperately out of tune, or it's an unbalanced reg deeper than 60 feet.

As far as I know, unbalanced regs react no differently to depth than do balanced regs. IP is always 125-140psi (whatever the reg is set to) over ambient pressure, until the tank pressure drops to fairly close to IP (like 500psi). What unbalanced regs are you talking about? I've had my MK2 R190 to 130ft, and I noticed basically no difference from the way it breathes at shallower depths. I'm not disputing that high performance regs are designed to perform exceptionally well at depth, but I think that has to do with several design elements, not the balanced/unbalanced issue.

It is my understanding that unbalanced second stages, all other things being equal (which, of course, they're not) present slightly more breathing resistance than balanced 2nd stages, due to the necessity for slightly higher spring tension. But, this is a small difference which is not affected by depth, to my knowledge.

I keep bringing up the balanced/unbalanced issue because I remember when I bought my first reg, I was "warned" against the hazards of unbalanced regs, and since I've found that there is a large amount of hype and questionable logic around about this aspect of regulator function.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I imagine that among today's regulators, any of the reputable brands work extremely well under normal recreational conditions.

 

[jonnythan]

As far as I know, unbalanced regs react no differently to depth than do balanced regs. IP is always 125-140psi (whatever the reg is set to) over ambient pressure, until the tank pressure drops to fairly close to IP (like 500psi). What unbalanced regs are you talking about? I've had my MK2 R190 to 130ft, and I noticed basically no difference from the way it breathes at shallower depths. I'm not disputing that high performance regs are designed to perform exceptionally well at depth, but I think that has to do with several design elements, not the balanced/unbalanced issue.

It is my understanding that unbalanced second stages, all other things being equal (which, of course, they're not) present slightly more breathing resistance than balanced 2nd stages, due to the necessity for slightly higher spring tension. But, this is a small difference which is not affected by depth, to my knowledge.

I keep bringing up the balanced/unbalanced issue because I remember when I bought my first reg, I was "warned" against the hazards of unbalanced regs, and since I've found that there is a large amount of hype and questionable logic around about this aspect of regulator function.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I imagine that among today's regulators, any of the reputable brands work extremely well under normal recreational conditions.

A balanced first stage that delivers 140 psig at the surface will deliver about 96 psig at 100 feet.

A regulator with an unbalanced first stage should be significantly harder to breathe at 100 or 130 feet vs the surface.. and this has been exactly my experience.

A balanced second stage reduces overall breathing effort because they can use a less stiff main spring, but this will have little to do with depth.