Have regulators improved lately??

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jonnythan:
A balanced first stage that delivers 140 psig at the surface will deliver about 96 psig at 100 feet.

A regulator with an unbalanced first stage should be significantly harder to breathe at 100 or 130 feet vs the surface.. and this has been exactly my experience.

A balanced second stage reduces overall breathing effort because they can use a less stiff main spring, but this will have little to do with depth.

Why do you believe that a balanced first stage will have a lower pressure at depth? The first stage IP will actually go higher to compensate for the increasing ambient water pressure. The pressure needs to increase to offset the water pressure. So, you need to equal the surface IP plus the ambient pressure to close the HP valve assembly. If your reg has a static surface IP of 130 psi, then at 100' the IP pressure would need to be approx. 160 psi to close the valve against the spring tension and water pressue. At 200', the IP would now need to be around 200 psi total. ANSTI scores register the IP as the depth increases. It also shows the minimum IP that occurs under the demand of the second stage.

Greg Barlow
 
The more I think about it the more I think you're right. That's how it was explained to me but it doesn't make sense when I actually picture a working first stage.

I do remember that my Sherwood Brut was pretty tough to breathe at 90 feet, but I can't for the life of me think of why that would be the case.
 
jonnythan:
The more I think about it the more I think you're right. That's how it was explained to me but it doesn't make sense when I actually picture a working first stage.

I do remember that my Sherwood Brut was pretty tough to breathe at 90 feet, but I can't for the life of me think of why that would be the case.

I don't mean to slam Sherwood's regs, but the first stage has been the weak link in their design for some time. Simulator scores demonstrate that the IP drops too much for the reg to score among "high performance" standards. Their second stages offer very good breathing characteristics, and are generally stable. I had high hopes for their "revised" models, but in my opinion, they missed the mark. They are robust, and rock solid, but don't offer the WOB scores for much more than depths shallower than 130'.

Greg
 
jonnythan:
A balanced first stage that delivers 140 psig at the surface will deliver about 96 psig at 100 feet.

A regulator with an unbalanced first stage should be significantly harder to breathe at 100 or 130 feet vs the surface.. and this has been exactly my experience.

A balanced second stage reduces overall breathing effort because they can use a less stiff main spring, but this will have little to do with depth.
The defining characteristic of scuba regulators is that they use a piston or diaphragm exposed to ambient pressure to maintain the same intermediate pressure over ambient pressure. So if the reg has an IP of 140 psi at the surface, it will have an absolute pressure inside the reg that is about 50 psi higher at 100 ft, but the IP will still be 140 psi higher than the ambient water pressure. So in effect all scuba regulators are "balanced" with respect to water pressure. This is I think where people get confused.

A "balanced" first stage on the other hand is balanced with respect to the tank supply pressure. The force exerted by any high pressure air enteringthe first stage is balanced to that it exerts no net downstream force on the poppet assembly (whether it is driven by a piston or a diaphragm). This means the same force is required to lift the seat off the orifice and start air flowing from the tank regardless of the pressure in the tank.

With an unbalanced design, the force needed to lift the seat off the orifice will change with tank pressure. So with an unbalanced piston first stage, the IP will be higher with a full tank at 3300 psi and will decrease perhaps 15-20 psi as tank pressure falls to 300 psi.

The opposite is true with an unbalanced diaphragm first stage as the IP will increase as tank pressure decreases. Unbalanced first stages are however almost unheard of as it is very simple to balance the seat carrier in a diaphragm design and there is no reason not to do it.

Balancing also allows a larger high pressure orifice to be used as the greater downstream forse form the incoming air can be balanced and is not a factor. In an unbalanced piston first stage however, a larger orifice means a greater difference in downstream force which in turn requires a larger diameter piston head to keep the IP change within reasonable limits. So the unbalanced design quickly reaches a practical limit in terms of orifice and piston size and flow rate is consequently limited compared to a balanced flow through piston design.
 
Diesel298:
well short answer is yes. better materals meching, and performance.
but there have been no astonishing breakthrus im aware of, just improvements on existing designs
I agree with you partially on this. There has been no great leap forward in performance, and their have been imporvements in production efficiency, but quality has not improved.

Reg performance has not improved significantly in the last 20 years. For example an early 80's vintage Scubapro Mk 10 Balanced Adjustable still breathes as well as any reg you could buy today and is more than enough for any recreational or technical diving task.

There have been minor imprvements but they are evolutionary rather than revolutionary and not all of them are relevant. To use SP regs as an example again, the Mk 25 uses an overbalanced piston design that ensures basically zero change in IP as tank pressure falls from 3300 to 300 psi whereas the Mk 10 had a 4-5 psi difference across this same range. But in practice, this makes no difference to the diver as performance was still excellent despite the slight change in IP so the improvement is more theoretical than practical.

The MK 25 also has a flow rate of 300 SCFM which is about twice as much as any diver ever needs under any circumtances. So a Mk 10 with half the Mk 25's flow rate still offerred all the performance ever needed, so the improvement is nice but not all that important as it really did nothing to meet an unmet need.

The MK 25 also uses a thermal insulation system that requires no silicone but it is less than 100% relaible in very cold water (less than 40 degrees). The Mk 10's silicone filled environmental chamber needed more maintenence but when properly serviced it was 100% effective. So whether TIS was an improvement or not is debateable, (although it does do a superb job in the Mk 2 and Mk 16.)

The Mk 25 uses a replaceable bushing system that allows tighter tolerance that reduce HP o-ring crimp and allows higher service pressures (up to 4350 psi/300 bar) and these tolerance are restored at every servcie when the bushings are replaced so the first stage body in theory can last virtually forever. On the other hand the Mk 10 will theoretically wear in this area dn eventually develop problems with HP o-ring pinch, but I have only found this occurring once in a Mk 10 and there are literally tens of thousands of them still in service, some for well over a quarter century. So wear in this area is not a real big concern. And while not a good idea, a Mk 10 could go 4-5 years between services with adequate care. This is a bad idea with a Mk 25 as the plastic bushings should be replaced more frequently than that. Finally, the Mk 25's 300 bar service pressure is nice, but I have yet to actually meet anyone who uses 300 bar tanks. Despite predictions otherwise, the trend has not been in the ever higher pressure direction with most people instead buying tanks in the same old 2400 to 3500 psi range.

The same trend in "improvement" applies across regulator brands. There have been detail improvements but nothing that really makes performance noticeably better. In the early eighties, the scuba first stage regulator pretty much reached a design peak in terms of performance and has plateaued since.

I would argue on the other hand that second stages designs have in some respects sufferred. The dive industry asa whole screwed envery diver around when they went with plastic second stages. They created dry mouth and cold water problems that were unheard of in metal cased second stages. They also created the potential to crack or break a second stage. In contrast you could drop a tank on metal cased second stage and not phase it. If you did somehow manage to dent it, you could hammer it back out and go diving. They also still look good after 20 years with a nice satin chrome look while a plastic second stage looks 20 years old after about 20 dives.

Plastic was great for manufacturers in terms of low production cost as they can mold a plastic second stage case and sell it at a profit at $5.00. And the marketing folks convinced divers that the more complex shapes possible would markedly improve breathing performance. The problem is tha 20 years later it has not happend yet and the cost savings from plastic have also never been passed to the diver either so they lost both ways.
 
I am not a technician and tech diver so that you guys must have more experiences than I have. But, in the rec. diver’s perspective, I have been surprised at the degree of technology improvement and acceptance on the scuba gear. I think the main reason is relatively the small market. This sport, scuba diving, must have been only for the certain people, not for the public. Look at the gear price and quality. I am wondering how many people think that is a reasonable, even regulator part cost that is mostly O-rings. Maybe, there is the reason why many divers are dreaming about DYI project for their own gear.



Another good example can be an underwater communication device. You know, you guys are using a cell phone on land nowadays. Depending on the place, you can watch TV and browse internet through 1 inch LCD panel. But, how about the underwater communication device? When I tried it, it looked like 1950s military phone that has a lot of static noise.



How about the compass? Who is still using compass? Do you put the small tiny compass on your truck rather than GPS? As a scientific diver, I have been trained for using a lot of mapping and researching, but I am always questioning about the outdated equipment and method. Yeah, it has been updated. I know, but I am talking about the degree of improvement.


How about dry suit? Your $2000 dry suit is still leaking, even valve. LOL~~~


As many experienced divers like DA Aquamaster pointed out, I can’t imagine how the previous old pals (sorry) could get into this sports without internet (including this board). Otherwise, we have to be mostly dependant on what LDS said. Image the situation if you have only one greedy LDS in your area. Someone might be able to refer the magazine…. No way, how many magazine we have for the scuba diving, even today? Don’t you agree that almost half of content is the advertisement?



The scuba manufactures’ market tactic is also good example how they have manipulated the market by using the warranty and service matter. Have you ever seen this kind of conservative market? Sometimes, as someone mentioned, when you need to get the service, you have to sturdy owner’s face (even feel guilty) for the reason you didn’t buy the gear and need to get the air from them. But, LDSs are still complaining by saying they didn’t make enough money. If then, where did money goes?



So, my point is that there is not that much improvement compared to other sports.



My 2 cents.
 
jonnythan:
A balanced first stage that delivers 140 psig at the surface will deliver about 96 psig at 100 feet.

A regulator with an unbalanced first stage should be significantly harder to breathe at 100 or 130 feet vs the surface.. and this has been exactly my experience.

A balanced second stage reduces overall breathing effort because they can use a less stiff main spring, but this will have little to do with depth.

I think that you had better redo your math. I believe you have got it all backwards. A balanced reg will increase IP proportionately to depth rather than the inverse.

As for the whole debate, I think that the original comment was made in regards to something smaller like the MR12 or V16. I am sorry. Even the abyss would eventually be beat out by an overbalanced diaphragm with a balanced adjustable second stage(when all other conditions are equal - because there will always someone that had a bad experience with any reg). Not that anyone would notice. I think that anyone who sits around and debates the differences in performance of the highest performance regs is just trying to justify their purchase.
I mean do we not have better things to do than sit around and analyze flowrates, ip drops, cracking pressures, and breathing resistances? I think that it is about time to get a life.
 
Boy you tech type guys can really "talk the talk" ....... is there a class to become a "dive/tech geek" or does it come natural ....... all I know is I love my MK10 and ever other year I take in in for cleaning and service and it has lasted me over 12 years without any problems ...... it breathes as good today as it did when I purchased it(2005 - 1988 ..... correction ..... make that 17 years) and I still wouldn't trade it for a MK25 or anything Apex ....
 
rescuediver009:
I mean do we not have better things to do than sit around and analyze flowrates, ip drops, cracking pressures, and breathing resistances? I think that it is about time to get a life.

No, I don't have anything better to do...
 
The only unbalanced 1st stage I have used (admittedly, this was air-sharing with someone using rental gear) was actually noticeably harder breathing than my MK25/G250 or MK25/600. Not dangerous feeling, but harder to take a fast deep breath.

Otherwise, all the regs I have tried have been relatively new and relatively premium, and they have all been so easy to breathe that I would be happy with any of them.

The people using rental gear (Aqualung, but not new or premium models) during our deep training dive said that they got harder to breathe at depth, and as the main tank pressure got below 1000 psi. I have never experienced these effects with my reg.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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