Halcyon on Divernet

[Genesis]

And here I figured you to be smarter than that. So now that you are free of the entrapment, do you just tie the straps back together??? Hmnnnn... even though I have a Hogarthian set-up, I do see it's limitations.

Entrapment? Uh, if I'm gonna cut off someone's harness, they're unconscious, unable to help me, and I've now got them on the surface at the back of the boat. The last thing I care about at that particular instant is putting their kit back on!

If I'm conscious and entrapped I can drop the rig in about 5 seconds flat. Indeed, its trivial Pete. Release the cross-belly strap and pull it through the crotch strap and you then have the following options:

1. If you can rotate your arms behind you slightly, it'll slip right off and down. 5 seconds flat.

2. You can "chicken wing" out of it. Harder to do in a drysuit, but possible (do the right arm first if your dump is in the usual place)

The hog-rigged harness is not difficult to get out of. Indeed, if someone rescuing you KNOWS how to get you out of it, they can do so if you're unconcscious doing method #1 almost as fast as they can make the two (or three) cuts necesssary to free it that way. Indeed, on the surface the fastest way to get rid of it if you need to is to, on your back, release the belly and crotch straps, then rotate your arms downward and make the wing/rig slightly negative. It'll fall right off.

The traditional rig is a LOT harder to get out of in a pinch because you have the shoulder fastex buckles, possibly one across the chest, one across the belly and then the cummerbund, most or all of which you have to release to get the BC off.

Indeed, I showed a "professional" who had been highly critical of me using a hog-rig for the rescue class (he DID allow it, however - unlike ANOTHER instructor who flatly refused to allow me to take the class in that rig!) how quickly I could ditch it in the pool. I challenged him to a "how fast can you ditch your kit" contest.

He was slack-jawed and, once I showed him how to do it, the light bulb went on.

Dogma without research doesn't do anyone any good, and its way too common among the priests. This is yet another example.

 

[hantzu701]

And here I figured you to be smarter than that. So now that you are free of the entrapment, do you just tie the straps back together??? Hmnnnn... even though I have a Hogarthian set-up, I do see it's limitations.

Weren't you just talking about the need to get out of your rig quickly? If you're in an entrapment, you have time to take off your rig and put it back on. I got the impression that you were talking about bailing, then you don't want to be attached to your rig. You seem to be shifting the arguments.

Charles

 

[The Chairman]

I have been stuck (too fat) exiting a wreck... the line that ensnared me was hard for my buddy to see as the tank was so high. I popped the QRs on my BC way faster than you could have gotten your shears out and swam out of my BC. Then I turned around and easily untangled my tank. Clip, clip the BC is back together and I was on my way. Glad I had the option open. Especially with the limited mobility in my right arm since surgery years ago.

I guess you assumed that MOST of the time the BC has to be removed from a distressed diver. I have never had to do that.

But hey, if it works for you then fine, just don't expect everyone to be as limited as you are in your gear configuration.

 

[Genesis]

I have been stuck (too fat) exiting a wreck... the line that ensnared me was hard for my buddy to see as the tank was so high. I popped the QRs on my BC way faster than you could have gotten your shears out and swam out of my BC. Then I turned around and easily untangled my tank. Clip, clip the BC is back together and I was on my way. Glad I had the option open. Especially with the limited mobility in my right arm since surgery years ago.

If you're entangled you do not have an emergency. The only emergencies are either being OOA or not breathing!

Its entirely possible, depending on the circumstances, that what you did could have extremely bad consequences. Getting completely out of a BC in a wreck if you are entangled may be necessary, but its not something to do in 5 seconds in any event, and depending on what you're wearing for exposure protection and weight you might find yourself immediately plastered up on the ceiling (or down on the floor) and have the reg (if you're sans long hose) ripped out of your mouth. Now what?

I've had to get out of my kit exactly once due to entanglement, and it was inside a wreck at a depth of about 120'. It was a carefully considered move, and with a single-piece harness was no big deal; indeed, slipping out of a harness is trivial, as I've already explained. Its only hard if you don't think about how to do it or if you've never seen someone show you how its done and/or you have to remove one from someone ELSE.

I guess you assumed that MOST of the time the BC has to be removed from a distressed diver. I have never had to do that.

Trying to board a diver who is unconcsious with his full kit on is nearly impossible most of the time. If you shore dive this obviously doesn't apply, but it certainly does if you dive from boats. Attempting to board that person with an extra 40-100+ lbs of dead weight on their body is just plain silly and, depending on the status of their gear could even be dangerous. Dropping charged tank valves and regs, especially K-valves, on hard surfaces with 200lbs of deadweight diver propelling them isn't real smart.

The "high priest" orthodoxy is that you consider ditching the kit immediately when you surface as it is easier to tow an unconscious diver with it gone; I find that stupid for a lot of reasons (not the least of which is that assuming the BC is intact it provides significant positive buoyancy, which is ALWAYS good when you have someone in trouble), but it becomes necessary to ditch it once you get the victim back to the boat but before you board him/her in essentially all cases - or you won't get the victim back on board the boat at all.

But hey, if it works for you then fine, just don't expect everyone to be as limited as you are in your gear configuration.

I expect nothing except that people not make false statements about something they clearly haven't investigated - and this is one of those cases. Considering that I dive such a rig, and can easily and almost immediately ditch my kit underwater if the need arises, I think I can speak to this.

This is, however, an exceeding common false position among "diving professionals" and indeed is one of the arguments many of them use "against" such a rig; witness one shop's flat refusal to allow me to take the rescue class with a hog rig, with their explanation being that it was too hard to remove from a distressed diver, and of course I'd have to play one many times during the class.

There is no problem with a conscious diver ditching a hog-rigged kit underwater if necessary. Indeed, the irony is that its easier UNDERWATER or IN the water than it is to get out of the kit on the surface!

 

[hantzu701]

But hey, if it works for you then fine, just don't expect everyone to be as limited as you are in your gear configuration.

I think most people who dive in a bp/wing would differ in opinion. In a bp/wing, I can customize my configuration specifically for the dive. If I'm diving deep, I can switch wings and add doubles. If I'm diving in warm water, I can switch from a heavy STA to a lightweight STA. In cold water, I can go with a larger wing and shift some of the weight from my waist to my bp with a v-weight. I have pouches that I can choose to bring or leave behind depending upon the conditions and nature of the dive.

In a BCD, I have one set of gear for singles. No option for doubles. Limited storage space for stuff I might need on a dive.

I think this is an argument about dive philosophy. Different divers dive differently. This is ok.

 

[d33ps1x]

Just too tired to get into the fray.

Another time.

 

[The Chairman]

Genesis...

I don't like the way you try and beat people into submission, and I refuse to be baited in such a fashion. You will argue with a sign post and take the wrong way home just to prove a point and still tell everyone that it was indeed faster. And no, I won't read your book length post on why I am stupid and you are not.

You dive your way, and I'll dive mine. Deal? I like Fastek buckles and multiple dumps and that's the way it is. Rather than dealing with hypothetical situations that have never happened to me, I showed you one that DID, and WHY I was glad to have them thar buckles. Your mind is made up and no amount of reason will change it. I am sure you have rescued SCORES of people with your trusty shears, and I praise you for your manliness.

But I like buckles and dumps... so sue me.

 

[Genesis]

I don't care how you dive Pete. You've already said in another thread that you wouldn't dive with me, and that's cool - I usually prefer to solo anyway, so the feeling is mutual.

But when 'ya come here, or anywhere else, and post something that's clearly wrong I will rebut it if I see it and feel like responding.

This is one of those cases.

In the wrecks that I penetrate around here doffing your kit is a last resort and something to give plenty of thought to before doing it. They tend to be extraordinarily silty and without any internal currents to clear them - you WILL kick it up if you doff your kit. Having done that, you had better be able to deal with a chocolate-milk environment both to disentangle yourself and to put your kit back together and exit (you DID run a line, and didn't lose it in this process, right?), because that's exactly what you will have.

If you get separated from your gas supply while doffing your kit, in zero/zero vis, you're dead with near 100% certainty.

Dive the kit that makes you feel good and that you enjoy. Just don't try to tell me or anyone else that its difficult or nearly impossibe to get out of a harness underwater, and fastex clips significantly improve that, because in the general case its simply not true.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I've taught rescue classes wearing a BP/wing to students who are wearing them and there isn't a problem getting yourself or some one else out of the harness.

As far as entrapment...

Most cave and wreck divers don't seem to worry about being able to get out of a harness and they stand the greatest chance of getting stuck or tangled.

Entanglements usually aren't much of a problem and the best answer is a good buddy. You guys in warm water with no weight might feel ok about taking your rig off but try it with a dry suit and heavy underwear. It's lots of fun being 25 pounds buoyant. If you're tangled and 25 pounds buoyant everything will get pulled tight so you can't ever get out and you may get seperated from your gear too. Keep your equipment on.

Entrapment? Don't go through places that are too small for your equipment. We go through some pretty small places in wrecks and caves and I haven't EVER even considered taking my gear off.

The big question about quick releases is...how do you feel about having them come undone on accident?

The main purpose of the harness and plate is to securely hold your tank/s on your back. They do that and far more rigidly than any BC that I've ever tried.

The other purpose of the harness it to provide a place to stow gear like a primarry and backup lights. A good place for a can light is on the belt. Most bc's don't have one. A real good place for backup lights is snapped to a shoulder d-ring with the other end held down by a rubber band. On a bc the quick release is in the way and if there's a d-ring on the shoulder it's almost always in the wrong place with little ot no adjustment.

Now you could suggest putting a backup light in a pocket but the problem then is deployment method. I pull the light through the rubber band and turn it on before unclipping it. Often you don't need to unclip it at all to do what you need to but if you do unclip it you want it turned on before you unclip it incase you drop it.

What about carrying decompression gas or a stage? Very few bc's give a way to sling a tank. Again most of the bc's with d-rings have way too many and they're in useless places.

When you do these kinds of comparissons it's helpful to look at the whole configuration and how it's used.

Could you pull off a dive with a conventional bc if you don't need to carry much? Sure. And that's great if that's all your trying to do.

Oh, I forgot...the article...why listen to some one who can't find the pull dump string when he knows that it's right in the middle of the valve. LOL. I don't have trouble finding mine even with heavy dry gloves on.
You don't need pull dumps all over the rig if you control your buoyancy with your left hand. You need one on the top (the inflate/deflate) and you need one at the bottom. There are other things for your right hand to do.

 

[The Chairman]

So Mike,

do you think the guy was writing a critique for cave/wreck/dir divers, or the average Joe?

If he was writing for the former, then I see that he may be remiss. If for the latter, then I have no problems with his evaluations. In fact, he clearly pointed out that Halcyon was trying to broaden it's market. For the average Joe, I felt the critique was fair as presented... and I like his "JDI" concept.

You mention the possibility of the buckle coming undone during the dive. In all my dives and with all my students, I have yet to see this ocur. For me, it's simply a non-existent problem. Can it? I am sure there is some possibility, but the rig under water puts far less strain than while out, and they hold up fine there too. As for the lights... I agree about the belt, but disagree about the backup lights. I am not happy with how I have to rig my HID on my Chute II. As for the knob (or toggle) on the dump... I like them.

As for dry suits and such... you are so right. There are a ton of factors that everyone needs to sort out as they build their kit. A BP & Wings clearly aren't for everyone and don't need to be. The skill (or lack thereof) resides in the diver and not the BC anyway. Unfortunately there are many that have the mindset that if you don't arrive at THEIR solution for a particular problem, then you are "clearly wrong".

I don't care how you dive Pete

Good, then leave me alone, Karl. Your ego exceeds your diving expertise by several measures. As I said before, you are a legend in your own mind. You talk like you are an expert, but I don't see any evidence of that. If I want your help to figure out the mysteries of diving, I will drive to Destin and ask for it. I would much rather listen to Mike or any other person that provides a more humble and honest approach to disagreements. But that's just my opinion and others may find you engaging.