Halcyon entering SM market

[MScorpa]

IMHO, there's two 'streams' of sidemount now:

1) The minimalist ("Bogarthean") approach as illustrated by the Razor, Stealth, Z-Trim, Ratatosk etc

2) The 'steel/cold-water approach; as illustrated by the Nomad, SMS100, Armadillo etc... and now the Contour. Might also count the OMS Tesseract/Profile in this group (and varied other DIY wing-based rigs).


....and then there's the SMS50, which is tries to be both simultaneously and fails...



There's room for some strokes of genius...



I'll train them in whatever they bring (but advise towards Stealth, if asked), or can rent varied rigs. Have taught multiple courses to Razor, Stealth, SMS100, SMS50 and Z-Trim. Most rigs end up more/less modified by the end...

Hey Andy, I just wanted to add and/or clarify that the xDeep Stealth is also a viable steel/cold water rig as well. With 36 lbs of lift it will float heavy steels and stages with ease and stay streamlined while doing it. This system seems to be the best at bridging the gap between the two 'streams' of sidemount.

 

[victorzamora]

I personally am glad to see Halcyon entering the Sidemount marketplace. Having said that, does that really mean that GUE has to adopt SM at all? I hope they do, and it'd be interesting to take a GUE Sidemount course. However, if the above hypotheses are true....then I have a HUGE problem with GUE. As has been pointed out to me from multiple independant sources, there's a HUGE difference between diving with tanks on your side and diving sidemount. Besides the gear config, reg config, air-share procedures, gas planning, lack of manifold (don't get started on UTD's garbage), trim and other basic differences between the configuration......sidemounting in caves involves VERY tight restrictions, removing tanks, and generally other relatively advanced tasks. Also, it should be noted that not only Major Restrictions are very advanced in terms of training....but the restrictions GUE divers are facing now that are forcing them to SM are after very long dives. Adding all of the hassle of switching to brand new gear configuration to your already large list of challenges, while you're at the APEX of your diving limits??? I think that's a bad idea. I think that if GUE is going to accept Sidemount, they need to do it one of two ways: 1) How they have been, which is preaching against it but using it when absolutely needed, or 2) Fully embrace and go SM from TechFundies-up with a solid plan of how to make it DIR compatible.

Having said that, I don't think there's anything wrong with making SM DIR-compatible (besides the manifold, but that's mitigated by having easier access to your valves). As long as you standardize your SM setup with long hose on the right, short hose on the left, and your team understands and trains for mixed-team diving (very minimal differences), then I don't see the problem. DIR is all about standardizing for consistency, minimizing for reliability, and thinking logically about the problems you may face and possible outcomes. On any dive, the only REAL emergency is being OOA. SM or BM, why should you care if I can quickly and safely deploy a 2nd stage on a long hose to you when you're OOA?

There are a lot of ways of sidemounting, and it's REALLY easy when you're diving with people with a common instructor. I was diving with another of Edd's "followers" and the pre-dive was SUPER easy. We dove the same procedures, the same tanks (gas planning), and had the same basic setup. It was very similar to two GUE divers meeting (DIEW?). I also dove this past week with Jason Renoux. We had never really discussed the details of training. We had a slightly longer pre-dive briefing to go over lights-out procedures, line marking procedures (our markers and permanent markers).....but our "Sidemount briefing" was very short. He dives Mexican caves in a "Bogarthian" rig (stealth) with AL80's, and I typically dive Florida caves with steels with a "Big" SM rig (Edd's SMS100). However, besides trying to convince me that his rig was better, the dive was no different than DIR divers having Horseshoe vs Donut doubles wings. I had more lift and his rig was a tad smaller, but everything was in the same place. My point is, I don't see why a motivated individual couldn't standardize a method of sidemounting that would allow for those that like standardization a way into the world of SM. Then, just like in BM, you can have SM divers that ignore that standardization and do their own thing.

 

[PfcAJ]

....but the restrictions GUE divers are facing now that are forcing them to SM are after very long dives. Adding all of the hassle of switching to brand new gear configuration to your already large list of challenges, while you're at the APEX of your diving limits???

Huh??

 

[victorzamora]

Sorry, that was phrased poorly wasn't it?? What I meant was I think it's crazy to switch configurations that drastically just as you're approaching such challenging dives. The mentality was proposed earlier that GUE divers should dive BM doubles in every scenario that would allow them to, and then change to SM just for the very challenging/tight dives. I think the lack of familiarity with a system that you will be pushing to the edge of your limits is crazy. Plus, a lot of the DIR/GUE/WKPP divers that are now moving to SM are doing so because of restrictions found HOURS back in the cave. I know I'd hate to have a 2-hour dive pushing my limits in gear I'm not familiar with, much less a 12-hour dive.

 

[Superlyte27]

Just a suggestion, but taking sidemount advice from an agency that (self-admittedly) doesn't encompass, teach, or fully understand, the practice of sidemount diving may not be the best way to gain an understanding of the subject.

I agree completely. For more than 2 decades these peeps have been saying that sidemount is going to kill divers. Now they're finally starting to embrace it. I'm not sure I want these people who are two decades late to the party to be the one I drive home with.

Better late than never, but there's instructors out there who have been diving sidemount since the beginning. I'd prefer to take my class/advice from them. It's hard to play catch-up with someone so late in the game.

 

[ams511]

What I meant was I think it's crazy to switch configurations that drastically just as you're approaching such challenging dives. The mentality was proposed earlier that GUE divers should dive BM doubles in every scenario that would allow them to, and then change to SM just for the very challenging/tight dives.

If this is true then GUE is not being consistent with the philosophy espoused in the fundies book. There JJ says that it is best to dive with a similar equipment configuration (taking into account the circumstances of the dive) for all dives to gain familiarity and to practice. To have divers flip-flop between back-mount and side-mount would violate this philosophy.

 

[victorzamora]

Ams, that's why I'd much rather them go all in and do it fundies up. I think that with all the time it's taken to join this party, they've had time to reconcile sidemount with the DIR philosophy.

Pete, I agree. However, I've been looking at taking fundies anyway.... being able to do it in side mount would be a perk. Also, it's no secret that a lot of higher ups in GUE have been diving side mount for a while now.

Having said that, my wife just brought up the point that just because halcyon is releasing the contour doesn't mean GUE is going to be diving side Mount any time soon, right?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4

 

[PfcAJ]

Plus, a lot of the (snip)WKPP divers that are now moving to SM are doing so because of restrictions found HOURS back in the cave. I know I'd hate to have a 2-hour dive pushing my limits in gear I'm not familiar with, much less a 12-hour dive.

I don't think that's accurate.

 

[ucfdiver]

I agree completely. For more than 2 decades these peeps have been saying that sidemount is going to kill divers. Now they're finally starting to embrace it. I'm not sure I want these people who are two decades late to the party to be the one I drive home with.

Pete, could you cite a source for anyone currently associated with GUE stating that sidemount is going to kill divers? I'm having difficulty locating something like that, but I thought I would ask you before spending too much time on it since it seems you've found it.

Having said that, my wife just brought up the point that just because halcyon is releasing the contour doesn't mean GUE is going to be diving side Mount any time soon, right?

It wouldn't surprise me eventually, but I don't think it's coming right away. Remember that Halcyon is a for profit with limited individuals making decisions, while GUE is a nonprofit with a larger BOD to make decisions. I realize there's overlap, but I don't believe that every Halcyon product created is for a GUE course. Think back to the CCR wing made a long time ago by Halcyon, still no GUE CCR class to date.

 

[dbulmer]

Pete, could you cite a source for anyone currently associated with GUE stating that sidemount is going to kill divers? I'm having difficulty locating something like that, but I thought I would ask you before spending too much time on it since it seems you've found it.

It wouldn't surprise me eventually, but I don't think it's coming right away. Remember that Halcyon is a for profit with limited individuals making decisions, while GUE is a nonprofit with a larger BOD to make decisions. I realize there's overlap, but I don't believe that every Halcyon product created is for a GUE course. Think back to the CCR wing made a long time ago by Halcyon, still no GUE CCR class to date.

James I don't know anything about cave diving or SM but reading this thread I'm reminded of Carlsberg ads which end with :

"Reassuringly expensive"

Seems like Halcyon could be the diving equipment equivalent