"Guided" 200' dive with a single AL80?

[drbill]

Many of you missed the original thread, so as a result don't have a point of reference for our objections.

The person in the original thread took others to extreme depth with them on single AL80's while acting as a "guide." (His words, not mine)

Dr. Bill did the dives solo (a whole 'nuther argument) but he's not involving or endagering anyone else doing so. He also made more appropriate gas planning, including redundancy and taking into account deep stops. He is also not posting video and commentary on public boards glorifiying himself, or making it seem as if this type of diving is "ok."

I personally don't see a parallel to what Dr. Bill is doing and what was originally posted by Playa.

I've done my share of stupid dives, just as I'm sure a lot of us here has. The difference is the posting and chest thumping that makes it seem as if its routine and safe and possibly encouraging someone who doesn't know any better to follow suit.

Thanks, CaveDiver.

As I said, I do not recommend to anyone else to do some of the dives I do. I am not qualified to make such recommendations to anyone else because I do not know enough about them relative to the issues I raised. If anything, I would recommend to other divers that they do NOT do such dives. I do them for a specific reason... filming deep water habitats and species.

I think it is irresponsible for anyone, "instructor" or otherwise (unless certified as a tech instructor), to take other divers to such depths without proper training and equipment.

By the way, I dive with redundancy whether my maximum depth is 15 or 200 ft. I learned years ago that one may "plan" a dive to just 40 ft, but nature may modify your plan (in my case descending to twice that depth to film a bat ray) and then equipment failure may require the redundancy that you didn't take with you. Fortunately I was able to make a CESA from 70+ ft with "no" air in my lungs.

Given the buddy practices of many divers these days, a buddy is often not close enough to share their air in an emergency anyways.

 

[jeraldjcook]

You mean the part where they didn't carry the gas with them, I guess thinking there's no way they could not find it when they needed it...and it did look like that dropped gas was part of the required gas, and not a contingency plan.

That kind of planning?

Perhaps not the optimal way to do things, but certainly better nothing at all. Without knowing their exact profile and gas plan, while the dive could have been planned better, you can't definitively say they were acting irresponsibly. Should a diver have an emergency, there were two buddies close by to assist. Plus, six minutes of deco is a major obligation and could probably have been done with two of the divers sharing with the third. Again, not optimal, but doable IF they had everything worked out.

Although I'm not sure I would have penetrated the Spiegel on an AL80 as his other video shows. :11:

 

[Mike Edmonston]

Although I'm not sure I would have penetrated the Spiegel on an AL80 as his other video shows. :11:

I'm not going down that thread again......

Let's just say that it's not a great idea:no

 

[Spratman]

Holy vanishing threads batman, I didn't even realize it was pulled!

Anyone know why??

First, this is the original post on SB, then Jason cross-posted on TDS.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/mexico/208341-saw-hammerhead-today-woohoo.html

The thread was yanked by TDS because it was a) not a technical dive and b) it was evident that he basically thought all the posters on TDS were a bunch of wannabees and didn't know anything. In essence said "FOAD" it got really hot over there, so they pulled the thread.

There has been plenty of blog stuff posted and just too many inconsistencies to be argued.

I'm glad to see that he is actually moving toward tech diving training with Dennis.

 

[Steve R]

Perhaps not the optimal way to do things, but certainly better nothing at all. Without knowing their exact profile and gas plan, while the dive could have been planned better, you can't definitively say they were acting irresponsibly. Should a diver have an emergency, there were two buddies close by to assist. Plus, six minutes of deco is a major obligation and could probably have been done with two of the divers sharing with the third. Again, not optimal, but doable IF they had everything worked out.

Although I'm not sure I would have penetrated the Spiegel on an AL80 as his other video shows. :11:

I watched the videos........that was all I really needed to know. More than I needed.


His Quote: " yes i was narced pretty good and i just dove the backwall last sunday 230 feet. yes that was molokini..."....roflmao


Yes, I can say they were/are pretty irresponsible. Cut and dried. What exactly is it you are not getting? He's only dumb on the Spiegel?

But hey, it's hard to argue with the odds against anything going overly wrong. It's pretty small isn't it. But it's a biotch when it does.

And that's when you get these farm animals showing up in the accident forums and no-one having a clue what went wrong and everyone crying mystery death, heart attack etc.

 

[JeffG]

But hey, it's hard to argue with the odds against anything going overly wrong. It's pretty small isn't it. But it's a biotch when it does.

Diving is easy, but also unforgiving.

 

[jeraldjcook]

What exactly is it you are not getting? He's only dumb on the Spiegel?

No, the Spiegel comment was a quick edit on my part. I posted the first part then decided to see if he had any other videos showing he was a responsible diver. I just didn't feel like rewriting the whole thing.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Hey dr bill, I have'nt forgot to send you a cd of the film in the hperbaric chamber,just have not had the time to download yet.its so funny that divers like to attack others,yet they just dont understand everybody has different air and narcosis tolerances. Devan the divemaster would see I would have over 1000 psi and feel free to dive longer we have time,what she didn't know how deep I went cause I turned the the depth guage back.Same rule as always but no one mention it so far turn back at 2/3 surface with 1/3. with no bottom timer or computer I can go just pass 200 and back with the basic air and depth reg set I rented,i never made it to 200 this trip but close. Being I was the solo diver and the divers would watch me fly by till I was gone,but yet I seemed to see more than them thats why I do it. Now for finding the octo you DONT NEED GLASSES you dive like I do so you can see lots. when I came across you pass rec limits I examined your breathing while filming I concluded it must be relaxing, so I took off went around you and down so you did'nt see me to worry about me. so thought OK lets take some pictures forgot about camera and depth rating,the camera dose not leak the functions do not want to work oh well. Bill when I checked your guages you had plenty of air and you like to suck it down at 10-15 feet be fore you get on the boat. Your lucky on your island,my Island is bad vis kickass currents and cold. like I told you the currents are going to be great when I get home there movin pretty good now, so I am only getting 1 hour dives in, couple dives a day. Hanging on to my inflatable pulls me even faster it's just a riot. So Dr Bill your welome at my house or guest house any time wont cost you dime you do'nt have to bring gear I have a dry suit for long dives for you so let me know,If you need a plane ticket also not a problem.so people that wack on your diving have no Idea what there talking about I wont dive with anyone but my wife. p.s.Happy Thanks Giving

 

[Mike Edmonston]

Hey dr bill, I have'nt forgot to send you a cd of the film in the hperbaric chamber,just have not had the time to download yet.its so funny that divers like to attack others,yet they just dont understand everybody has different air and narcosis tolerances. Devan the divemaster would see I would have over 1000 psi and feel free to dive longer we have time,what she didn't know how deep I went cause I turned the the depth guage back.Same rule as always but no one mention it so far turn back at 2/3 surface with 1/3. with no bottom timer or computer I can go just pass 200 and back with the basic air and depth reg set I rented,i never made it to 200 this trip but close. Being I was the solo diver and the divers would watch me fly by till I was gone,but yet I seemed to see more than them thats why I do it. Now for finding the octo you DONT NEED GLASSES you dive like I do so you can see lots. when I came across you pass rec limits I examined your breathing while filming I concluded it must be relaxing, so I took off went around you and down so you did'nt see me to worry about me. so thought OK lets take some pictures forgot about camera and depth rating,the camera dose not leak the functions do not want to work oh well. Bill when I checked your guages you had plenty of air and you like to suck it down at 10-15 feet be fore you get on the boat. Your lucky on your island,my Island is bad vis kickass currents and cold. like I told you the currents are going to be great when I get home there movin pretty good now, so I am only getting 1 hour dives in, couple dives a day. Hanging on to my inflatable pulls me even faster it's just a riot. So Dr Bill your welome at my house or guest house any time wont cost you dime you do'nt have to bring gear I have a dry suit for long dives for you so let me know,If you need a plane ticket also not a problem.so people that wack on your diving have no Idea what there talking about I wont dive with anyone but my wife. p.s.Happy Thanks Giving

A couple things:

1. Nobody slammed Bill for his diving. That's his business. Even if I don't personally agree with it, I still respect the hell out of him for doing it for so long and knowing his safe limits. nuff said..

2. Please separate your paragraphs when you write. It makes it much easier to read.

3. I have dove your island while I was stationed in WA, and yes it's cold and the vis could be better, but it is fun

4. I lost what you were trying to say about the depth gauges and the sac rate at 15ft.. Are you still narced from the dive?

Anyway, have fun guys.

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

there are a lot of members on here, who are assuming a lot of information when they make their comments.
first, correct me if i'm wrong, but i saw nothing in the quote about the divers paying the guide. i also saw nothing about ratings, certifications or experience.
so i think the significance, of rather what they did was proper or safe, comes down to the divers ratings, certifications, abilities and experience.

i have worked in a place where we dived to 180 - 220 regularly, and with single 80's. with the proper training, certifications and experience, this is not a crazy thing. i recently did a multilevel dive on the st croix wall, where we hit the 190' depth, and didn't rush up from that depth. we used deep stops on our computers, and spent a nice amount of time at each stop, on the wall. all of us were using 80's, and we were not in a rush. of course all of us are active instructors, who dive every single day, so our air conservation is really good. but, my point is, that this isn't a situation that i would think would raise this much of a reaction. padi doesn't have a problem with this, unless you are taking sport divers down, and breaking the sport diving depth of 130'. but with higher ratings and experience this isn't a big deal.

deco diving is very popular in the south pacific, but seems to be a cardinal sin in and around america. but unfortunately, the american region lags way behind the south pacific in dive technique. i'm not trying to talk smack, but that is my experience.

that being said, you should never dive deep, if you don't have a higher rating than advanced open water, don't have deep diving experience and are not with buddies with deep diving experience. there are more than a few facets to consider here.

Welcome to the Islands mon,

Glad you like the Cane Bay wall here on St Croix's north shore.
The west wall of the Salt River canyon is another great wall dive.

Having lived here for some years now, They're still my favorites. I've no doubt seen more of the deep topography there than anyone, and better yet, I can remember it later.

From personal experience, I can assure you that no matter what it seems like while you're there on air, it'll be a rude awakening when you do the same dive on mix. It's quite a shock when you realize that things you've seen dozens of times don't really look at all like you remember them, that is if you remember them, and if you recognize them.


One of these days, I really need to get to St Thomas and do wrecks, perfect dive for doubles with 30/30.


Darlene