GUE OW Training

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Maybe I am naive, but does better training that takes more time and effort HAVE to cost a buttload more?
Yes.

During any GUE class the instructor (at least that's my experiance) is engaged some 12 to 14 hours a day. That means he/she can't do anything else for living besides this, at least during the class. If he/she has some additional job, it must be put "on hold" during the class. The sum of money earned from classes and eventual other job must fulfill one's expectations.

I don't know how much time average "streamline" agenency instructor spends with their students but from my experience (knowing few of them) it's ilke 2 to 4 hours a day. Compare this with above and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Also, there's another possible angle of view. When I think about myself engaged in teaching activity in this way (12-14 hours a day), using above mentioned criteria (putting regular job on-hold), I find out that my classes would be ridiculously expensive (and it's not that I earn so much), however I like this sport.
 
I'm with Monk Seal. My OW dive days began at 7 and were over by about 11 am. My Fundies class ran 12 hours a day for three days. I figured my instructor made about $10 an hour per student for the class. I won't work for that much money :)

For an OW class with a lot of pool time, you also have to figure in the cost of pool rental, which is not insignificant. (I know, because I've looked into pool rental for scuba events. It isn't cheap.)
 
Maybe I am naive, but does better training that takes more time and effort HAVE to cost a buttload more? When I took my PAID open water training (last year), the training fee was $125 from a large sporting goods store. I was convinced that for all the time and expense it took an instructor to train four open water students. Wow, the store and the instructor had to split $500 for 4 days of pool work, and two days at the ocean (which was 150 miles away, so their was lodging expenses for the instructor). Well, there was no way anyone was making any money at all from the instruction. The store most be making all of their money through equipment sales (I really wonder if you can make any money at all renting gear at $40/day).

So, I have to imagine that the only profit motive is the sales of equipment and that the instructors do it because they love it and they want to share the love. Then would these same instructors offer better training as long as their expenses are covered? Does it really cost much more offer better training? A couple of extra days in the pool. Do three dives a day instead of two. After all, it does not appear that dive instructors are getting paid by the hour (if they it is far below minimum wage).
Different business model ... dive shops typically sell dive instruction as a loss leader, figuring on making up the difference in gear sales. That's one reason why you'll generally pay more for gear at a dive shop ... you're subsidizing the training program.

Dive instructors who work for a dive shop will get their "pay" in other ways ... keyman pricing on dive equipment ... free or discounted fills, tank VIPs, reg repair, etc. It adds up. Or, in a lot of cases, the instructor owns the shop.

The GUE instructor typically does not work for the shop they are teaching at ... and generally they have to travel to the location of the class, often from distances that require air travel. This skews costs quite a bit.

Then factor in pool time. Lots of OW classes really skimp there, because of the high costs of pool rental ... or they spread out those costs by having large classes, or multiple classes using the pool at the same time. But with a GUE class you'll be looking at two to three times the pool hours you'd get with the PADI (or other mainstream agency) class ... you'd need to if you wanted to be able to master the skills and pass the class.

Also, I cannot imagine a GUE OW class with 12 students ... or even 8. Student to instructor ratios would have to be much lower in order for the instruction to be effective. So those pool costs are going to be much higher, per student, than they would be for your PADI class.

Dive equipment ... are you kidding me? Most shops use the cheapest stuff they can get their hands on for OW classes ... because the reality is that the chlorine in the pools do awful things to dive gear, and they couldn't afford to be replacing their rental stock with high-end gear on a regular basis. A GUE OW class will not be using cheap jacket BCs and low-end regulators. The costs of equipping GUE OW students will generally be higher.

All these things add up.

It is true that dive professionals generally work for low wages ... and we don't expect to make much money at it. But we shouldn't be losing money either.

When I first became an instructor, my CD told me to never be afraid to charge appropriately for my classes ... because if I didn't value my time, my students wouldn't either. Time has proven him correct. GUE instructors are consistently at the top end of dive instructors available. One should be prepared to pay for quality. And at any level beyond OW, that's not even something that you need to explain to a properly-motivated student. But at the OW level, a C-card looks like a C-card, regardless of how hard you have to work for it, or who's agency initials are printed on it. This is the reason why people will flock to those $129 courses ... never giving a though to the adage that you get what you pay for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I'm with Monk Seal. My OW dive days began at 7 and were over by about 11 am. My Fundies class ran 12 hours a day for three days. I figured my instructor made about $10 an hour per student for the class. I won't work for that much money :)

For an OW class with a lot of pool time, you also have to figure in the cost of pool rental, which is not insignificant. (I know, because I've looked into pool rental for scuba events. It isn't cheap.)

My brain shuts off after about 6-8 hours of learning. A 12 hour class would be a waste for me. Three days of 12 hours each, my brain would be an oversaturated sponge with a lot of stuff just running off.
 
My brain shuts off after about 6-8 hours of learning. A 12 hour class would be a waste for me. Three days of 12 hours each, my brain would be an oversaturated sponge with a lot of stuff just running off.

You're not just sitting in a classroom listening to a lecture for 12 hours. The time includes lecture, equipment checks, dry runs, in-water skills, more in-water skills, experience dives, video debriefs, etc. Sure, it's still a lot to retain, but a lot of it is practicing and coaching, which doesn't just go in one ear and out the other like my sociology prof's lectures.

The instructor also has the flexibility to schedule as he sees fit - some classes are run as half-days over a longer period of time.

Now for the part I know you'll love: I think Fundies is now 5 full days, not 3 :)
 
When I did it, it was 3 days. I think more instructors are going to 4. The guys in Mexico are doing 5 days.
 
Makes sense that it's somewhat up to the instructors (depending on rigor, regional/environmental conditions, etc.). When my friends took it a few years ago, it was three as well.

From gue.com site:

Duration

The GUE Fundamentals class is normally conducted over a 2- to 3-day period. It involves a minimum of twenty (20) hours of instruction, encompassing both classroom and in-water work.
 
My brain shuts off after about 6-8 hours of learning. A 12 hour class would be a waste for me. Three days of 12 hours each, my brain would be an oversaturated sponge with a lot of stuff just running off.

Well, there WAS some down time, when we had to drive from the dive site to the classroom site. But at the end of Fundies, my brain WAS an oversaturated sponge with stuff dripping out of it. (Cave 1 was WAY worse.)
 
It bears repeating, I think, that most prospective divers are exploring, not committing. They don't know if they are going to like scuba well enough to continue the time and expense. So, with some exceptions, initial open water diving is paid for with time and money that is not only discretionary, but considered by the student to be totally surplus to their needs.

So, the more expensive and time consuming initial training is, the fewer people will be in the prospective student pool.

To me the primary goal in initial training should be to produce a safe diver. The kind of skills that are being talked about here go beyond what is commonly accepted as being a safe diver. Anything more is probably going to be too time and money expensive to sustain any reasonable business model.
 
I think the idea that a dive-professional is someone who can actually support a decent standard of living on their teaching income is a good idea (I know I wouldn´t want myself as an instructor after an 8+hr work-day).

And looking at my friends commitment to his students, which means that you basically have a "life time subscription" to picking his brains about all things diving(what he doesen´t know he can find out thru access to other GUE-instructors) which obviously goes way beyond the time spent in class and compare that to what you get from your "typical" OWI...

some people won´t value that resource and should go for the "typical" OW/AOW, while others will and would propably find themselves happier with my friends instruction(though it is priced differently)...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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