GUE OW Training

[ppo2_diver]

What you all seem to be missing is that GUE doesn't want market share, they want elite.

I'll disagree with you here Richard. I have been around many GUE instructors and not one of them has ever given the inclination that their students must be elite. The don't think of themselves as elite. I think they just want to promote better diving habits.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What you all seem to be missing is that GUE doesn't want market share, they want elite. And another "DIR" agency rolling out shortly is aiming the same way.

First off, I disagree with the premise (that GUE wants elite ... I think they want competent).

Secondly, how could you sell "elite" to someone who is coming, brand new, into an activity they know nothing about?

Certainly people who want to consider themselves "elite" are attracted to GUE. In some ways I consider that unfortunate, as I think they are more than anything else responsible for the bad image that GUE/DIR gets among the "non-elite" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Bismark]

What you all seem to be missing is that GUE doesn't want market share, they want elite. And another "DIR" agency rolling out shortly is aiming the same way.

Somebody is going to get a phone call .........

 

[Bismark]

First off, I disagree with the premise (that GUE wants elite ... I think they want competent).

Secondly, how could you sell "elite" to someone who is coming, brand new, into an activity they know nothing about?

Certainly people who want to consider themselves "elite" are attracted to GUE. In some ways I consider that unfortunate, as I think they are more than anything else responsible for the bad image that GUE/DIR gets among the "non-elite" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, never have truer words been spoken.

GUE is all about competent, confident, and safe divers. If that is misconstrued as "elite" then those are someone elses mistaken observations. I know you are aware of the history of the formation of GUE etc, but in summary, what GUE did right at the beginning was adopt a set of standards that was higher than most of the other agencies, and then did not waver from that standard. They applied this standard to student graduates and to their instructors. Their intention was to create a pathway to technical and cave training that would prepare the student for the uncompromising rigors of that diving. Too many students were simply arriving for this training completely unprepared for it, with a serious lack of fundamental skills that had been perpetuated by the overall low standards of most agency open water training. These lower standards had been, in turn, brought about by the competition for a larger market share by said agencies and by lowering entry requirements and standards in order to provide the same for less. Unfortunately, what this really meant was that students were actually getting less for less.

Fast forward to 2008 and the recreational diving courses offering. GUE is still not the "organization for the masses" but they have recognized a potential market niche for the same students that you have seen knocking at your door. I do not believe that GUE will ever attempt to compete with the likes of PADI or any of the large OW training agencies, however, their will be some students who chose to go the GUE route. Previous to this, this was not an option for any of them. Moreover, when you consider the average size of a GUE Fundamentals class (3) and the number of instructors, we are still not talking about a huge number of students.

From another perspective, what better way to help get rid of the "elite" view then offer open water training? Anyone can take the training and there is no "elite" qualification necessary. Everyone starts on the same page. How can you consider yourself "elite" at something you have never done before.

I agree with you that a few voiciferous individuals made the road much more rocky than it could have been, but I also remember the phrase that "there is no such thing as bad press, just spell my name right". As I was not part of the early iterations of GUE, this name calling, etc., is really just a history lesson for me, however I can honestly say that I have dove with many current GUE instructors and students and the attitude of 10 years ago is seldom seen. And if it does, the rest of us call that person to task. You can rest assured that this is also the approach taken by GUE HQ on this matter with regard to instructors.

So what does the future hold? I find it very interesting that for its size, GUE has had an inordinate amount of impact on diving training. This by itself is a good thing. The increase in technical training (mostly "tech lite") has prompted several agencies to revisit their training program and offer something like "intro to tech" to provide what GUE did 10 years ago. While this is a move in the right direction, as long as the standards for many of these agencies provide for as much instructor discretion as they currently do, we are still faced with the view that "it is not the agency, it is the instructor". I don't think this is going to change any time soon as there is too much money to be made in training instructors and I think we can both agree that many, many current instructors in both recreational and technical diving training are less then stellar examples of diving education..........

Some time back you sent me your outline for your AOW course and I thought it was excellent. I went so far as to use parts of it for my own diving training courses. (copyright infringement) Educators like yourself are head and shoulders above the majority of diving instructors and produce comfortable, competent and safe divers. You are doing a great service to the diving community in general (I have met and dove with some of your students BTW) and I hope you get busier and busier. Unfortunately, you are an atypical example of diving educators. If even 100 divers are educated by GUE at the OW level each year, this is a positive move. It might be a drop in the bucket, but Rome wasn't built in a day. It may also prompt other agencies in a competitive market to look over their shoulders a bit. It is a fact that the enemy is not always 8' tall, but when you are talking business and reputation, my guess is that perception is quite a bit. Particularly when information is as freely exchanged as it is in this day and age. Lets keep our fingers crossed that the net result is better divers in the water.

We can talk about you becoming a GUE instructor intern later.......

Best,

Guy

 

[ppo2_diver]

BThese lower standards had been, in turn, brought about by the competition for a larger market share by said agencies and by lowering entry requirements and standards in order to provide the same for less. Unfortunately, what this really meant was that students were actually getting less for less.

Guy, very good statements. But the entire blame can't be placed on agencies alone. Over time, the agencies have "streamlined" their course offerings. However, many dive stores followed suit to make $$$ money (notice I didn't say earn). Had the dive stores buck the trend and hold their students and instructors to high levels, then we may have not seen the steep decline in dive training quality. It might have been a gradual decline...

Now I think I have gotten off the OP topic. My apologies.

 

[Bismark]

Guy, very good statements. But the entire blame can't be placed on agencies alone. Over time, the agencies have "streamlined" their course offerings. However, many dive stores followed suit to make $$$ money (notice I didn't say earn). Had the dive stores buck the trend and hold their students and instructors to high levels, then we may have not seen the steep decline in dive training quality. It might have been a gradual decline...

Now I think I have gotten off the OP topic. My apologies.

I agree 100%, lets spread the blame around.....

 

[TSandM]

I have to say that, in conversation with Bob Sherwood, he did tell me that GUE is not interested in market share, but that the agency exists to train an "elite cadre of divers" for exploration and projects. The whole course structure has been reverse engineered to provide a pipeline into T3/C3 and the project diving. This perception may be peculiar to Bob, but this is what he told me, and I honestly found it discouraging at the time. I later decided that even GUE has to kiss a lot of frogs to find a couple of princes, and I'll take the quality instruction I get as they keep looking . . .

 

[Peter Guy]

One thing to note is that there is a distinction between GUE and GUE Instructors. While GUE may not be interested in "market share" and only interested in creating an "elite cadre" to feed the WKPP pipeline, I find it hard to believe that the GUE Instructors share that interest (or lack thereof). So even if "GUE" doesn't market this concept, I'm quite sure the Instructors will.

 

[Bismark]

"Ribbitt, Ribbitt"...........

 

[mikemikethepike]

Maybe I am naive, but does better training that takes more time and effort HAVE to cost a buttload more? When I took my PAID open water training (last year), the training fee was $125 from a large sporting goods store. I was convinced that for all the time and expense it took an instructor to train four open water students. Wow, the store and the instructor had to split $500 for 4 days of pool work, and two days at the ocean (which was 150 miles away, so their was lodging expenses for the instructor). Well, there was no way anyone was making any money at all from the instruction. The store most be making all of their money through equipment sales (I really wonder if you can make any money at all renting gear at $40/day).

So, I have to imagine that the only profit motive is the sales of equipment and that the instructors do it because they love it and they want to share the love. Then would these same instructors offer better training as long as their expenses are covered? Does it really cost much more offer better training? A couple of extra days in the pool. Do three dives a day instead of two. After all, it does not appear that dive instructors are getting paid by the hour (if they it is far below minimum wage).