Gue DIR-F vs Naui intro to tech

[Adobo]

So what your saying is pick over instructors until you find one you THINK might be good. When I spend big bux for a Sun Certified instructor I don't have to pick and choose, I just show up for the course and get -to the standards- quality training.

Why is this SO hard to do in the diving industry? Call up my nearest NAUI shop and get into a course. Oppose, you picked the wrong instructor and wasted your time and money. They didn't teach way above and beyond the basic material. Sorry.

The unfortunate fact is, that is the reality. It would be nice to find an agency where you know that if an instructor has their "seal of approval", that the content and quality of instruction will meet and exceed expectations. However, you know that is not the case. And to change that is not an easy task.

All I am proposing is that if you do not have the utmost confidence in what you are going to get from your local guy/gal and/or GUE is not your cup of tea, there are at least two other options made available by 5thd-x.

 

[JimC]

Just to bring this back around to topic:
"What are the differences between the two."

DIR-F is a predictable course, in that you get a simmilar experince no mater who you take it with.
NAUI Intro to Tech seems to me to be yet another instructor crapshoot. It could be "more" than DIR-F or it could be much less.

 

[5thD-X]

Jim

I am going to have to disagree here. When GUE started the original instructor core was very talented individuals (Ted C, Tamara K, Tyler M and so on) who had vast experience in teaching, diving and ultimately project style tech/cave diving experience. When the Fundamentals program was brought to the market, instructors such as these were teaching it and adding to this very basic course outline, their personal experience, their ability to teach, debrief and evaluate the students. As the program become more popular many "New" individuals became GUE instructors and lacked this similar type of diving experience or knowledge or ultimately general teaching ability. Originally “GUE instructors” were considered top shelf, with top shelf diving experience. This is no longer the case. I am not going to list names here but there are many many GUE instructors without any previous teaching experience (In fact DIRF is the only course they can teach and have taught two people last year), there are many without any experience in Technical/Cave Diving and certainly lack real world project diving experience. They have become simply “parrots” of the program. This may allow a student to get some of the info but that is about it.

As it has being said previously on this thread, I still believe you cannot receive the same value in a course from all GUE instructors. They vary greatly because of their different abilities and different backgrounds. Ultimately I believe it is important to research your instructor, their reputation, their in-water skill, their ability to teach, their real world experience as a diver. See if their values, skills and abilities are something you seek. Then make a decision on taking a class or not.

Andrew

 

[artw]

we are somewhat lucky because our diveshop Jim is talking about has a relatively squared away instructor who would be teaching the Naui Tech. From what I hear one of the few, if not only, squared away NAUI instructor in Ontario. I think what Jim is trying to say here, and I am not putting words in his mouth, if Joe Blow Diver goes to Joe Blow Naui dive shop in backwoods Ontario, will he get the same quality type program as he would from the squared away Naui Tech instructor in Ottawa?

or will it be the same as GUE which you have to travel to Kingston to get a real DIR F.

 

[ageddiver]

As it has being said previously on this thread, I still believe you cannot receive the same value in a course from all GUE instructors. They vary greatly because of their different abilities and different backgrounds. Ultimately I believe it is important to research your instructor, their reputation, their in-water skill, their ability to teach, their real world experience as a diver. See if their values, skills and abilities are something you seek. Then make a decision on taking a class or not.

I absolutely agree. I don't believe the question can EVER be as simple as which agency/course but should rather be about which instructor. Good instructors won't use poor materials just because they "have to" - they'll improvise when required. And good materials won't make up for a lack of teaching skills, ability and experience. Arguing about which agency/course is better is, IMO, a waste of time.

 

[daniel f aleman]

The whole point of instruction, of any kind, is to actually IMPART necessary information/skills to the student/client. All agency-wide instruction programs always begin with one instructor (eg. R.Todd Smith wrote the Ice Diver Book for PADI, taught it, then it became the PADI class standard). Any effort that AG can come up with that assists NAUI in producing an agency-wide program WILL be to his great credit, no doubt.

Also, Fundimentals, Essentials, Elements, etc., are nothing new in-and-of-themselves as skill-advancing programs, many ol'-school NAUI instructors taught all kinds diving skills (informally at the least), much of it learned in the Navy Program. As an example, take a Tech class from these guys: Duggan Diving.

 

[WaterDawg]

Also, Fundimentals, Essentials, Elements, etc., are nothing new in-and-of-themselves as skill-advancing programs, many ol'-school NAUI instructors taught all kinds diving skills (informally at the least), much of it learned in the Navy Program. As an example, take a Tech class from these guys: Duggan Diving.

thanks yet again for the info. I actually head it in one of the old "DIR videos" and again in my class and in many of your post. NO ONE DENIES IT.

 

[mdb]

Jim

I Ultimately I believe it is important to research your instructor, their reputation, their in-water skill, their ability to teach, their real world experience as a diver. See if their values, skills and abilities are something you seek. Then make a decision on taking a class or not.

Andrew

Andrew, of course you are correct. Any course; "fundies", or PADI AOW/RESCUE etc depends on the skills and teaching capability of the instructor. I have enrolled in 12 or more courses since first certified. The finest one I ever had was early on by a very gifted diver/teacher Lou Fead. He wrote a book called "Easy Diver", he talked about being in synch with the ocean, aware of your enviroment, aware that you were responsible for yourself. I hope you find good teachers. Dive a lot.

 

[MHK]

Guys,

I'm out of town so I don't have an abundance of time to respond, but I checked my e-mails and I had about 15 PM's alerting me to this thread, so I think a response is warranted.

Let's be clear about a few things from the get go:

1) I consider AG a friend so I have no interest in anyone trying to divide and conquer;

2) My comments are not meant to bash NAUI, or any other agency for that matter;

That said, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that AG will teach an awesome class under the NAUI umbrella, but that does NOT transcend into the concept that "JOHN DOE NAUI Scuba Instructor" can take AG's Power Point and teach an equally good "NAUI DIR-F" class. In fact, in reading AG's post(s) it appears that he is using a different Power Point then the rest of the instructor core.

Where NAUI [ or any agency for that matter] will steadfastly fail in a material fashion in this attempt is that fundamentally, they will treat this as just another "specialty" class, and the instructor will more then likely lack the core commitment to the underlying ideology that makes the DIR holostic system it's most effective. You simply can't preach personal preference, multiple gear configuration, sitting on your knees, etc. etc. one day, and then the next day teach a class that provides for rigid adherence to a unified team approach, rigid adherence to a standardized gear configuration, etc.. You either believe in the holostic nature of the DIR system, or you don't. And unless AG plans on mentoring a fresh crop of instructors from the NAUI pool, in my considered view, this effort will fail. AG has spent a considerable amount of time developing a DIR mindset, and that will naturally transcend in his classes, but John Doe from Anytown USA that simply picks up the Power Point presentation and starts offering a "DIR" type class under a different umbrella will have a difficult time providing his student(s) a true DIR class.

I find it somewhat ironic that for the longest time GUE was hearing that the DIR-F class was nothing more then a marketing scheme designed to help Halcyon sell more equipment, and endured the scrutiny mirroring that of the last 2 Supreme Court nominees, but now that NAUI has decided to throw their hat in the ring and copy our training, most appear willing to accept that the class does in fact have significant value and that it should now be mass marketed. The 2, quite frankly, are designed to be mutually exclusive. Mass marketing in the dive industry has historically proven to enure only to the benefit of the card selling agencies, and usually result in watered down training. The GUE instructor process is beyond comparison in the dive industry, and those of us that have endured it, and those of us that currently teach a true DIR-F class are, how should I say this delicatley, quite skeptical of the copy-cat, mass appeal approach.. I suspect the diving consumer should also be leary of the next generation of "DIR-like" training being offered under a competing banner. They either believe in the system, or they don't and I don't see how for 30+ years your entire instructor core can teach personal preferance, all-inclusive, any gear configuration goes and then have one instructor defection from GUE and then all of a sudden present yourself as the GUE alternative and offer the very thing they stood steadfastly against for over 3 decades. It's seems disengenuous to me.

Anyway, I'm on my honeymoon and won't be checking in too often but I'll respond when I get back.

Regards

 

[mdb]

Guys,

I'm out of town so I don't have an abundance of time to respond, but I checked my e-mails and I had about 15 PM's alerting me to this thread, so I think a response is warranted.

Let's be clear about a few things from the get go:

1) I consider AG a friend so I have no interest in anyone trying to divide and conquer;

2) My comments are not meant to bash NAUI, or any other agency for that matter;

That said, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that AG will teach an awesome class under the NAUI umbrella, but that does NOT transcend into the concept that "JOHN DOE NAUI Scuba Instructor" can take AG's Power Point and teach an equally good "NAUI DIR-F" class. In fact, in reading AG's post(s) it appears that he is using a different Power Point then the rest of the instructor core.

Where NAUI [ or any agency for that matter] will steadfastly fail in a material fashion in this attempt is that fundamentally, they will treat this as just another "specialty" class, and the instructor will more then likely lack the core commitment to the underlying ideology that makes the DIR holostic system it's most effective. You simply can't preach personal preference, multiple gear configuration, sitting on your knees, etc. etc. one day, and then the next day teach a class that provides for rigid adherence to a unified team approach, rigid adherence to a standardized gear configuration, etc.. You either believe in the holostic nature of the DIR system, or you don't. And unless AG plans on mentoring a fresh crop of instructors from the NAUI pool, in my considered view, this effort will fail. AG has spent a considerable amount of time developing a DIR mindset, and that will naturally transcend in his classes, but John Doe from Anytown USA that simply picks up the Power Point presentation and starts offering a "DIR" type class under a different umbrella will have a difficult time providing his student(s) a true DIR class.

I find it somewhat ironic that for the longest time GUE was hearing that the DIR-F class was nothing more then a marketing scheme designed to help Halcyon sell more equipment, and endured the scrutiny mirroring that of the last 2 Supreme Court nominees, but now that NAUI has decided to throw their hat in the ring and copy our training, most appear willing to accept that the class does in fact have significant value and that it should now be mass marketed. The 2, quite frankly, are designed to be mutually exclusive. Mass marketing in the dive industry has historically proven to enure only to the benefit of the card selling agencies, and usually result in watered down training. The GUE instructor process is beyond comparison in the dive industry, and those of us that have endured it, and those of us that currently teach a true DIR-F class are, how should I say this delicatley, quite skeptical of the copy-cat, mass appeal approach.. I suspect the diving consumer should also be leary of the next generation of "DIR-like" training being offered under a competing banner. They either believe in the system, or they don't and I don't see how for 30+ years your entire instructor core can teach personal preferance, all-inclusive, any gear configuration goes and then have one instructor defection from GUE and then all of a sudden present yourself as the GUE alternative and offer the very thing they stood steadfastly against for over 3 decades. It's seems disengenuous to me.

Anyway, I'm on my honeymoon and won't be checking in too often but I'll respond when I get back.

Regards

Hope you have had a nice honeymoon.
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Lou knew the open ocean and did his best to impart his knowledge to all divers. No agenda, no labels, simply diving.