I took the slam as being against the ng, not myself. Apology noted and apology given for perhaps being hasty in my "reply comprehension".
Phil
GUE/DIR as cult
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I took the slam as being against the ng, not myself. Apology noted and apology given for perhaps being hasty in my "reply comprehension".
Phil
ScubaDan
Guest
newton once bubbled...
And there are no other lights that fit the bill? That is certainly the impression both the book and my DIR instructors gave me. (I actually disagree with the assertion about bulb overdriving. IMO, it's a marketing gimmeck to sell more Halcyon gear) FWIW, I have a really old UK light that appears to be the pre-decessor of the Scout. It's the same form-factor and setup as the Scout, but I've had mine for years. Oh, it's not black, so it's probably not DIR.)
You can overdrive a light bulb by using one that is under rated for the voltage that is being used, it will burn it out faster. Dont know if any actually do, but if they did the light would seem brighter then one that used the proper bulb.
Mike, I don't understand your statement. I would think someone of your caliber, who is aware of the differences in equipment, would be in the best possible position to offer that expertize to students/novice divers.
And why, if you own the store, can't you choose the equipment to sell? I'm just not seeing this I guess...
Phil
MHK
Guest
newton once bubbled...
To an outside observer, there is an obvious connection. The WKPP site points people to the GUE site for updates, and the GUE site mentions WKPP in it's research portion of the site. If you were donating money, wouldn't you assume that GUE research would be where your donations would go?
I have no doubt it lost money. However, the appearance of it being partially funded by GUE (I have no idea if GUE used the donations on the dive, but it certainly appears so) gives it the appearance that money donated to GUE helps to fund dive trips. If I claim to be a non-profit, will you partially pay for my next dive trip. I promise I won't make any money on it, and I'll even spend some of my own money in the process if it makes you feel better.
I understand completely. However, as I stated before, the only public research projects attributed to GUE seem to be boon-dogles for the founders. We don't hear of any other noble uses of the funds. (Again, I suspect this is mainly due to the small amount of funds, but to an outside observer looking in, it doesn't encourage me to donate.)
Where was this list? I didn't see anything like this on the GUE site.
Now, I agree with the portions of this list, but this information is gleaned from George's WKPP site. Again, the DIR-F book explicitly mentions Halcyon and has many, many pictures of Halcyon gear with the logo prominently, but few other manufacturers are mentioned or have their logo displayed. (Except for ScubaPro regulators, as previously mentioned).
For what it's worth, for my single-tank setup, the Halcyon wing is the only wing choice at this time. For doubles I'm not yet qualified to answer it personally, but others seem to think that there are other manufacturers who make usable wings.
Good point. I believe Robert Carmichael (of Brownie's) owns the company. However, JJ is the CEO, and I assume gets some monetary compensation when people buy Halcyon gear.ut:
And there are no other lights that fit the bill? That is certainly the impression both the book and my DIR instructors gave me. (I actually disagree with the assertion about bulb overdriving. IMO, it's a marketing gimmeck to sell more Halcyon gear) FWIW, I have a really old UK light that appears to be the pre-decessor of the Scout. It's the same form-factor and setup as the Scout, but I've had mine for years. Oh, it's not black, so it's probably not DIR.
One could argue that you are somewhat biased as well. I certainly felt that I needed to buy Halcyon gear to be a DIR diver, or more to the point, that Halcyon gear is the only manufacturer that caters to the DIR diver. This is fairly obvious from the plethora of questions asked on technical portion of the board. Do I buy a Dive-Rite, OMS, FredT, GUTS, etc... widget, and almost always the answer is to buy a Halcyon. Obviously *someone* thinks that either Halcyon equipment is the only qualified equipment, or that it's the only equipment worth buying. (I'm leaning towards the former instead of the latter, since I truly believe that other manfacturers are just as capable of creating usable/safe equipment for the techincal diver).
However, to bring things back to reality, I do have some Halcyon gear. My wife and I both have Pioneer setups, and we love them. I would be hard-pressed to switch to something else. My DIR-F course completely (!!) changed the way I dive. In that regard, both GUE and Halcyon have made a very positive contribution to my life.
However, I still have issue with the commercialism of the DIR-F course materials, as well as the real or perceived conflict of interest between GUE, EE, Halcyon, Gavin, and the non-profit status of the GUE.
Again, thanks for answering me query, and sorry for the length of the reply....
Nate
I just spent 10 minutes tryong to respond point by point but somehow I screwed up the quotes so it didn't post or save so let me see if I can do an abridged version thsi time and if something still isn't clear let's try again in smaller portions ;-)
GUE is a non-profit organization that does many other things in addition to teach scuba. While we are more well-known for our teaching efforts we also have a group of PHD's that work with various Universities, military, DAN and decompression scientists around the globe. Conserving the environment is a great part of what we stand for, but we just get less exposure for those efforts.
The WKPP [ which in the interest of full disclosure I'm also a member of] is more dedicated to the exploration and research of the Wakulla Karst Plain cave system in northern Florida. While for certain the diver's needed to explore these extreme depths and penetrations, many of whom are GUE trained belong to both organizations, but I suspect that is a byproduct of the demands associated with 300' depths and 18,000 cave penetrations coupled with the rigorous training GUE offers.
The organizations are separate, the B of D is speerate, the mission statement is spearate and the simply the goals and objective are distinct. Howver there are few diver's in the world that are qualified to do a 18,000 cave penetration with an average depth of 300' so you see an overlap of resources in personell..
As to funding, again the funding and revenue raising requirements and efforts are seperate and distinct..
WRT, the Britannic that was a once in a lifetime opportunity that provided for skilled diver's capable of penetrating wrecks in the 400' range in strong currents and operating as a team.. Again the resources in terms of qualified diver's get severly limited as you progress to those levels..
As to any commercialism, I guess I just don't see it, in fact in my classes we go out of our way to avoid discussing brand names. Actually that was JJ's idea. I disagree with JJ in that regard because I think when you pay me for advise that I should give it, but JJ has asked me to avoid any potential conflicts so we stick to discussing what to look for in gear, nit brand names..
As small point to clarify, but Robert nor JJ have an ownership interest in the scout lights or the cannister lights. Barry Miller owns that company 100%, but his lights get the job done so we recommend them..
And lastly you made a comment about *fitting the bill*, so I'd like to add a parenthetical thought. As a recreational diver progresses into technical diving, the fitting the bill mentality needs to get left behind. You can't be 300' underwater and 18,000 back in a cave facing 12 hours of decompression obligations with gear *that fits the bill*.. Once you start getting to the level of a preclusion of direct ascents you have to plan for the worse and hope for the best and your gear is your life in this type of diving so mediocrity is not an option..
Let me know if I missed any of your points and I'll respond..
Later
Nope. But being a non-profit and using the money to benefit yourself and not society is bad.
JJ, Andrew, and GI3 can all make as much money as they like. However, the appearance of using a non-profit entity for personal gain is where there is an issue.
What, who, me? Did you peek at my credit card bill last year?
I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a GUE instructor to sell Halcyon gear. As a matter of fact, Halcyon makes some gear that many call non-DIR. (The ACB pockets for example.)
I know of at least one dealer who is certainly not a GUE instructor who sells Halcyon gear, so I'm pretty sure that's not a requirement.
I personally don't think it's wrong for an instructor to push gear. Heck, I teach fly-fishing for free and push the gear I own to others, and I don't make *anything*. Where do you draw the line between evangelism of a good product and trying to make buck? To me, it's in the motivation of the person pushing the product. If I have nothing to gain from it, then there is no conflict of interest. If however I make a buck whenever you buy something I'm pushing, my involvement may be less honorable, or at least appear to be.
This is the issue with JJ, GUE, and Halcyon/EE. JJ's push for Halcyon equipment is probably because he thinks it's the best, but then again, he also profits from it, so a conflict exists.
Nate
From the DIR-F book.
Most manufacturers [overdrive the light bulb] with excess voltage.
Again, is this true, or is it marketing hype used to sell Halcyon gear? Last I checked, my UK used a 6V bulb in the light. Are 'most' manufacturers in fact over-driving the bulbs and lying to the consumers in their product, or is JJ using this statement to sell more Halcyon gear?
Nate
I snipped out a bunch of relevant stuff since this could go on and on if we tried to hit every point.
You'd better tell that to the head of training and to the publisher of the DIR-F training materials (the book), since both the book and the instructors in my course specifically mentioned/recommended Halcyon gear.
An interesting point to know, thanks!
That was a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said 'gear that qualifies'. Do you honestly believe that Halcyon is the only gear manufacturer that is generating gear that is capable of doing 18K penetrations? I find this hard to believe, especially when GI3 used DiveRite wings for most of the work, if not the 'big' one to 18K.
Nate
You'd better tell that to the head of training and to the publisher of the DIR-F training materials (the book), since both the book and the instructors in my course specifically mentioned/recommended Halcyon gear.
An interesting point to know, thanks!
That was a poor choice of words on my part. I should have said 'gear that qualifies'. Do you honestly believe that Halcyon is the only gear manufacturer that is generating gear that is capable of doing 18K penetrations? I find this hard to believe, especially when GI3 used DiveRite wings for most of the work, if not the 'big' one to 18K.
Nate
newton,
I think you missed my point. I am a Halcyon dealor. I don't sell much because my market is small. Teaching a DIRF creates a market. 5thd just tought a class right in my backyard. My guess is they sold equipment I was unable to sell because I couldn't provide the class to create the market.
The potential danger is lets say I become a DIRF instructor. Now 5thd and me are both putting on a class in my back yard. Sond familiar? Maybe a $99 DIRF class? Maybe one with an abrevieated schedule? All of a suden a high demand for GUE instructors so all the dealors can sell equipment.
MechDiver,
The reason you can't (as a store owner) choose what you sell is because dealorships cost money and come with terms that a store may not be able or willing to meet.
What if the instructor isn't the store owner? Yet he gets marching orders to sell equipment. If I only recommend items that I think divers need it leaves me precious few items to sell. Do you think an instructor might ever be tempted to teach a student to use the gear the instructor needs to sell? IMO, this is what makes the world go round in this business. BTW it's also why I still need a day job.
I think you missed my point. I am a Halcyon dealor. I don't sell much because my market is small. Teaching a DIRF creates a market. 5thd just tought a class right in my backyard. My guess is they sold equipment I was unable to sell because I couldn't provide the class to create the market.
The potential danger is lets say I become a DIRF instructor. Now 5thd and me are both putting on a class in my back yard. Sond familiar? Maybe a $99 DIRF class? Maybe one with an abrevieated schedule? All of a suden a high demand for GUE instructors so all the dealors can sell equipment.
MechDiver,
The reason you can't (as a store owner) choose what you sell is because dealorships cost money and come with terms that a store may not be able or willing to meet.
What if the instructor isn't the store owner? Yet he gets marching orders to sell equipment. If I only recommend items that I think divers need it leaves me precious few items to sell. Do you think an instructor might ever be tempted to teach a student to use the gear the instructor needs to sell? IMO, this is what makes the world go round in this business. BTW it's also why I still need a day job.
My apologies, I did indeed miss your point. However, I would think that by the very fact that you're doing such a good job teaching, you would end up with more students who continue to dive. This in turn leads to them buying their own equipment, which they will *hopefully* buy from you. Just the hassle factor alone of setting up a BP/wings for the first time makes it more likely they'll go to you. (Although given how much cheaper things are over the internet, it's less likely than it used to be, but that topic has been covered enough, so let's not go there.)
My guess is that your class would be about $50-75 cheaper, since your students won't have to pay for a hotel, meals, and flight for a remote instructor (Andrew and MHK). The 5thd classes in Seattle are cheaper for that reason. And, I suspect both MHK and Andrew won't mind too much, since it seems they're pretty much booked as solid as they want to be world-wide.
I'm sure that Andrew sells alot of equipment from his DIR-F classes, but I suspect EE probably gets a bunch of new customers as well. Either way, JJ wins.
Nate
Scuba
Contributor
Spectre makes good points in his post.
Why the need to offend those who don't subscribe to your ideology by calling them names such as STROKES? Stroke in this context means to me someone who pretends to be what he is not - a diver, for example. When someone who is branded a stroke raises an issue regarding those who claim to do it right, he is said to be trolling. As though by making this assertion the issue has a slim to none chance of being valid.
Some, wether they are extremists or not, are also prone to boisterous, grandiloquent claims about how their system is the best, one and only, for Them, for All, and for all Possible Scenerios. All fine and good, but can you prove it to a Stroke with solid, incontrovertible evidence? Somehow you don't see these claims being espoused, definetely to the same degree, by those who practice non DIR systems and philosophies.
I have not been there, but have heard enough examples of divers questioning aspect of DIR in the GUE forum where they are likely to be ridiculed and insulted. Where is the professionalism?
I suspect some of the leaders don't set the best example.
It is good that every aspect of the DIR philosphy is explained to support the reason for its adoption. But can some of you also see this is one side of the coin? Or have some of you found the one sided coin you were looking for? I suspect from posts on boards such as this, that a significant number does'nt care to look at the other side. Nothing wrong with this, your choice, but to deny there is another side and make general assertions based on only your limited view is not wise, to say the least. The DIR system does not encompass the optimum for all divers and all diving conditions as some would seem to believe. For specific examples read the different threads on this board.
To be honest MHK has been like a breath of fresh air here, he is to be commended for the way he expresses his views. A good example to follow for those who are and aspire to be DIR. Keep it up and a lot of the misconceptions about DIR will go away. Fall for the us and them mentality, and well, here we are with another wonderful thread.
Why the need to offend those who don't subscribe to your ideology by calling them names such as STROKES? Stroke in this context means to me someone who pretends to be what he is not - a diver, for example. When someone who is branded a stroke raises an issue regarding those who claim to do it right, he is said to be trolling. As though by making this assertion the issue has a slim to none chance of being valid.
Some, wether they are extremists or not, are also prone to boisterous, grandiloquent claims about how their system is the best, one and only, for Them, for All, and for all Possible Scenerios. All fine and good, but can you prove it to a Stroke with solid, incontrovertible evidence? Somehow you don't see these claims being espoused, definetely to the same degree, by those who practice non DIR systems and philosophies.
I have not been there, but have heard enough examples of divers questioning aspect of DIR in the GUE forum where they are likely to be ridiculed and insulted. Where is the professionalism?
I suspect some of the leaders don't set the best example.
It is good that every aspect of the DIR philosphy is explained to support the reason for its adoption. But can some of you also see this is one side of the coin? Or have some of you found the one sided coin you were looking for? I suspect from posts on boards such as this, that a significant number does'nt care to look at the other side. Nothing wrong with this, your choice, but to deny there is another side and make general assertions based on only your limited view is not wise, to say the least. The DIR system does not encompass the optimum for all divers and all diving conditions as some would seem to believe. For specific examples read the different threads on this board.
To be honest MHK has been like a breath of fresh air here, he is to be commended for the way he expresses his views. A good example to follow for those who are and aspire to be DIR. Keep it up and a lot of the misconceptions about DIR will go away. Fall for the us and them mentality, and well, here we are with another wonderful thread.
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