GUE and Sidemount?

[victorzamora]

I've been thinking about going to double long hose. Seems a simpler solution than the manifold nonsense.

Then you are back to donating whatever is in your mouth.

I'm going to echo the "Call Edd" from earlier. Donating from your mouth is nice, and in manifolded doubles it makes plenty of sense. However, in sidemount, there's no need for that.

Or just accept that you can't donate what's in your mouth and do without all the convoluted "solutions"? Same way you can't donate a rebreather loop.

I can't believe it. In a conversation regarding DIR/GUE protocols I'm completely agreeing with AJ. I mean, there are no caveats!

Jokes aside, there's a reason GUE SMers normally (always?) go through Edd.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

It's all very simple. If you want to dive sidemount to dive sidemount, get your training somewhere else.

Close, but not quite: if you want to dive anything other than BM doubles for any reason...get trained elsewhere. As an agency GUE is excellent at teaching a single concept with broad applicability. The idea that they're as an agency even competent to train any other way, much less for more extreme dives, is a joke.

Are there GUE-involved/related CCR and SM divers who'd make great instructors for those systems? Yes. Is it because of GUE or in spite of it? The latter. Maybe they'll be dragged kicking and screaming into developing similarly comprehensive CCR and SM pathways when someone finally realizes that forcing a transition only after the Tech 2 level is incredibly stupid...but they look to be years and years away from that.

 

[TSandM]

You're right, Dr. Lecter, for the reasons I listed. GUE doesn't think the risk-reward balance is acceptable for rebreather use in dives that are in insensitive areas, and can easily be accomplished in standard backmount. As Panos wrote in a recent Quest article, it's the imperative for exploration that has pushed the organization up against practical and logistical limits that have resulted in a cautious acceptance of CCR.

You see your tool as broadly applicable, and it irritates you that GUE doesn't. They see their tool as broadly applicable, as it is, and choose to use that approach until it is impractical. It's a different choice. GUE has a pretty darned good safety record in doing some rather extreme diving, so I would posit that there are some data that suggest it's been a good one.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Irritates me? No, you misunderstand. I couldn't care less what GUE thinks of CCR—as a largely self/informally trained solo tech diver, what GUE does and what I do intersect very rarely and the ways in which we do it intersect even less so.

I just don't want anyone being confused by your sycophantic posting, which suggests that GUE would be a good training agency for those interested in CCR/SM for extreme dives. As an agency, GUE is not competent to teach those systems regardless of whether it’s for simpler dives or a complex wreck penetration below 100m. Maybe one day they will be, but that day is many years away.

GUE has dedicated themselves into a corner: diving has reached a point at the ever-expanding “outer margin” where the system to which they’ve dedicated their entire holistic training approach is simply inapplicable. To take a fun little inversion of reality, it’s as if they had said helium was the devil and insisted on a system of training and diving designed to reduce/manage narcosis and OxTox events caused by deep air diving…it’d work well for a while, but eventually the depths involved render the system obsolete. In attempts to avoid obsolescence we get stupid stuff like the UTD z-manifold, the “DIR” JJ CCR configuration, and the idea that CCR/SM should only be considered after Tech 2.

The idea that an exclusively BM doubles trained team diver should consider switching to something else solely for extreme dives is hilarious. I hope they keep it up, though – the idea of GUE fading into irrelevancy solely because of its own dogmatism is amusing.

 

[PfcAJ]

GUE has dedicated themselves into a corner: diving has reached a point at the ever-expanding “outer margin” where the system to which they’ve dedicated their entire holistic training approach is simply inapplicable.

I think you're just unaware of what's going on around the world using the existing GUE platform.

 

[00wabbit]

Wow - so much drama.

The few gue divers I have had the pleasure of diving with were excellent divers and very procedure and "by the book" oriented. I found this very refreshing compared to the divers that are a bit too cavalier in their style for my tastes.

It it was this attitude and precision that I liked about the gue divers, but even though I understand the arguments I still would rather dive sidemount

Again I'm just playing in the recreational and light technical areas. I don't plan to do extremely deep dives. I would just like to stay longer to get a few more photos on some of these dives.

 

[tbone1004]

you'll find most of us that are not GUE/UTD/DIR divers agree about 98% with what they do, but are willing to change and adapt equipment based on the environment or personal factors. That is what you are seeing here, especially wrt sidemount. GUE has been somewhat ok with sidemount/nomount for a long time, but it was never taught because it was reserved for very specific diving, where sidemount was required due to the restriction size, no other reason was valid enough. You will see that most of us agree with them if you are diving with the WKPP or doing normal cave diving, but in certain circumstances slight gear changes are advantageous, and large changes made due to personal preference, i.e. sidemount in non restrictive caves, are useful.

You will also find that most of those divers are not going to try to jam it down your throat, but a few that have drank the kool-aid a bit too regularly will and those ruin it for the rest of the lot. It's a slight difference, but it is that last 2% of what they do that stirs the animosity that you will encounter.

 

[txdiver]

GUE has been planning the release of a SM curriculum for some time but it may take another bit ... The gear is available ...

If you are truly interested in SM there a few instructors specializing in this methodology that you should contact - none where mentioned here in this thread. This comment is not intended as a diss against those mentioned - except the manifold idiocy which defeats the entire SM core ...

Also SM is not restricted to exploration - its a style that might be more suitable for delicate environments (= conservation) and as such falls within the core values of GUE.

My 2 cents

Andy

 

[00wabbit]

I am already diving sidemount. I've had some training in it. Next summer I am planning to take some sort of deco class. Right now it looks like tdi advanced nitrox/deco.

I mostly want to know more about what is going on and to extend my range slightly. I'm pretty sure I'll never be down in the 200ft range. I would like to take this training in sidemount because I know there are procedures for gas sharing and gas switches/ bottle carrying that will be very different than back mount.


Anywho just researching at the moment.

The he gue divers I have encountered have been in the 98% and are good ambassadors of the GUE program that is why I was curious.

 

[tbone1004]

your best bet is still to call Edd. He was one of the few that was asked to start the GUE program but refused because they were going to make him take fundies in backmount and he won't put tanks on his back anymore. He's not that far of a drive from the coast, and can likely do basic sidemount and deco in a long weekend for you. If not, Paul Heinerth is another good sidemount diver in cave country and deco procedures can be taught in the Orange Grove basin since it gets deep enough, especially on air.