GUE and Sidemount position ?

[Patoux01]

I didn't express a point of view.

1) A fact:
"Nobody, outside of UTD uses the z-manifold".

2) A point-of-view:
"I don't think anyone should consider using the z-manifold".

I'm pretty sure it's a fact.

I'd rephrase to "few people outside UTD use the z-manifold". There's some of them, although there's not many. Saw one with a manifold and a ratatosk (I think) recently.

 

[DevonDiver]

I'd rephrase to "few people outside UTD use the z-manifold". There's some of them, although there's not many. Saw one with a manifold and a ratatosk (I think) recently.

Are you sure he wasn't UTD??

Never seen, or heard of, any non-UTD trained diver adopting the z-manifold... and I've been very involved in the sidemount community since long before UTD even considered having a SM programme...

 

[Dan_P]

UTD is the only agency that forces students to use a specific brand of sidemount. Surprisingly, it's one they manufacture, sell and profit from.

UTD is brand neutral.
You can show up with any wing, any tanks, any regs, any hoses, spg's, whatever, and you can choose a different manifold than UTDs one, isolatable or distribution only, and it's fine depending on the requirement for isolation.
It's false to say that UTD forces anyone to use a specific brand.

UTDs sidemount classes do require some manifold. Apparently, the best one on the market at present seems to be the UTD made one, but that doesn't imply any exclusivity. There's no brand exclusivity on any UTD course.

Again, do you have a financial interest that collides with the Z-system?

Keep in mind, I'm not saying the way you dive is wrong or dangerous, and I have no doubt you're extremely well versed at it, probably more so than most. And I honestly mean no disrespect.
That said, I happen to dive a different solution. Which happens to be the solution at the heart of this conversation. I'll be happy to talk about that, but we need to elevate the conversation above mud slinging, falsehoods and crying wolf or it won't bring about any benefit to anyone participating.

 

[Darghu]

That said, I happen to dive a different solution. Which happens to be the solution at the heart of this conversation. I'll be happy to talk about that, but we need to elevate the conversation above mud slinging, falsehoods and crying wolf or it won't bring about any benefit to anyone participating.

And I do appreciate - I am sure in few months when I will come back to read any comments I will clearly understand a bit more about that you are saying. This topic can be linked also to
What is the future of GUE?

This is exactly what I am looking for and trying to understand.
Maybe in 2 years - GUE will have his own Sidemount courses who follow their standards / procedures
but I would not wait this happen and give it a try.

 

[OMANDIVER]

I think the English (Mexican cave) style of harness is very slowly establishing dominance in the global market. XDeep, in particular, are starting to make sales in the USA....where American (Florida Cave) has traditionally been the sole approach. Hollis releasing a more Mexican style rig, the Katana, hints at a potentially changing trend in the USA.

I'd guess that 99% of sidemount dives are done with independent manifolds. I've never heard of anyone outside of UTD using, or recommending, the Z-system or other manifold approach.

With independent cylinders, I'd suggest that the overwhelming majority of trained sidemount divers are using the Hogarthian inspired long-hose and bungee-necklace short-hose regulator approach.

In short, I'd predict that the general approach epitomised by the likes of Steve Bogearts and Steve Martin would be the long-term future global trend.

Of course, we don't know what new ideas might be innovated in the future... but I think the foundations are set for a globally 'accepted' solution; like has happened with Hogarthian/DIR backmount.

A bit tangential but talking of mexican rigs i would really like to know why the Razor sidemount harness requires its own agency, instructors, standards and certification? I am familiar with the three card trick...

 

[Patoux01]

It allows them to have a much stricter course and control on the instructors. Teaching sidemount on a razor does not mean you are a go sidemount instructor.

These guys could very well teach on a razor, but you will never see this crapity from a go sidemount instructor.

 

[OMANDIVER]

It allows them to have a much stricter course and control on the instructors. Teaching sidemount on a razor does not mean you are a go sidemount instructor.

These guys could very well teach on a razor, but you will never see this crapity from a go sidemount instructor.
View attachment 418212

Its just some webbing, a bladder and a few metal rings like any other sidemount harness

 

[DevonDiver]

A bit tangential but talking of mexican rigs i would really like to know why the Razor sidemount harness requires its own agency, instructors, standards and certification? I am familiar with the three card trick...

Go Sidemount is a holistic system. You don't need Bogearts or Hartmann to authorize you for teaching the Razor, outside of that specific 'Go Sidemount' system.

I've been teaching the Razor for 8 years or so...along with XDeep, Apeks and numerous other rigs.

UTD is brand neutral.
You can show up with any wing, any tanks, any regs, any hoses, spg's, whatever, and you can choose a different manifold than UTDs one, isolatable or distribution only, and it's fine depending on the requirement for isolation.

Which is a JOKE as the rest of the sidemount community shuns the concept of manifolds... and NO other manufacturer has come close to even thinking about releasing a manifold sidemount.

You need a $1200 UTD sidemount rig to go with your $$$$ UTD Scubapro clone regs and your $$$$ UTD drysuit and your $$$$ UTD fins and mask...

Didn't Andrew buy himself a nice resort on the Mediterranean last year?

UTDs sidemount classes do require some manifold. Apparently, the best one on the market at present seems to be the UTD made one,....

"ONLY"

UTD is the ONLY sidemount manifold on the market. Because...

UTD are the ONLY people who think it's a good idea.

Again, do you have a financial interest that collides with the Z-system?

Zero. I'm an independent instructor and I teach in a wide variety of rigs. I don't do any retail whatsoever. I have zero financial incentives beyond instructor tuition expenses.

I am passionate about education though... and I hate to see people being flogged a line of BS to defend what, to date, is the least justifiable 'innovation' in sidemount... put together by people with miserly small expertise or reputation in sidemount..and which kit is only ever supported by those who've drunk copious UTD kool aid and/or got vested financial interests in defending the z-system and/or UTD as a whole... .

That said, I happen to dive a different solution. Which happens to be the solution at the heart of this conversation. I'll be happy to talk about that, but we need to elevate the conversation above mud slinging, falsehoods and crying wolf or it won't bring about any benefit to anyone participating.

I've never yet heard a UTD affiliated Z-system owner allow an unbiased and purely rational debate on theat equipment. It always degenerates into fantasy claims, illegitimate statistics and.... well, just burying heads in sand, fingers in their ears... shouting "nah.. nah... nah..." until all the nasty 'haters' go away.

Sucks to be 'that group' sitting by themselves being the butt of everyone else's laughter and dismay..... but that's where UTD seem to be headed nowadays.

Once the kool aid is drank... I've noticed it's near impossible to make these people reconsider the validity of what they've allowed themselves to believe/be told..

 

[Darghu]

DevonDiver
Do you think GUE will be able to set a good standardized gear or will it be better to know how to us various (at least the good one) Sidemount system?

Is it better to look into Cave and Wreck penetration, maybe technical diving too?

What's the point to Recreational Sidemount?

 

[PfcAJ]

What's the point to Recreational Sidemount?

Looks tek af. Everyone will know you're the real deal.