Good Trim and the Fin Pivot?

[MikeFerrara]

I assure you I am not wrong although with my extremly limited experience and brain power it may seem that way or it just may be my improper dive technique.

Now you yourself state that this is a skill that takes practice. The practice you speak so hightly of, is it limited to finding that perfect trim or are there techniques you must use? This is because it does not just happen once you have properly adjusted your trim. This is a skill that requires overt action on the part of the diver. I stated that yes, if you employ the proper technique then you can overcome the shift in your CB but with no action what you are saying is impossible.

[/B] [/I]

Your correct there's more to it than just balance (where the weight is placed and some of us have explained this about 1000 times. However with the right weight placement the shift in CG will be small and and barely noticable.

Your description is very true whan a diver has a thick wet suit, AL tank, traditional bc and all their weight on the waist. As this diver descend the suit will compress and lose buoyancy. Air will be added to the bc. The buoyancy is then shifted from all over to the upper body which is above the weights and the diver goes vertical.

We're trying to sugest that you shouldn't go diving dressed like this because it's a pain. Put some weight up by the bc. That weight might be a plate or a steel tank or trim weights or whatever. When you're done you'll have little weight on your hips. It also really halps to get rid of the thick wet suit and use a dry suit beause of the constant volume (buoyancy) of the suit. Using the dry suit greatly reduces or eliminates CG changes with depth.

Now the CG changes during the dive are small and only exist because we just can't get things perfect.

Now learn how to use your boddy position and you're set. You can hover horizontal inches off the bottom and ascend or descend in that position at will

 

[perpet1]

We've been through this before. The points you make are not mechanically wrong. None the less we can ascend and descend without foreward motion and do it horizontally. Certainly there are shifts during the dive. Tanks become lighter ect.

Go watch the 5th D videos to see how it works in practice.

In this thread I never mentioned forward motion. I also agreed that in practice you can do it BUT in practice you need to activly change your posture to keep everything in "balance"

My point has always been that you make it sound like when you adjust your trim perfectly then you will be able to do anything and it just happens. That is so not the case.

I also watched the video and they are having to do work to maintain a horizontal attitude. It is not just happening. I also went back and reread most of your other posts in the other thread and we are not as much in dissagreement as you think.

My point it that a horizontal attitude does not just happen as a function of good trim as you change you bueyency chatacteristics. DIR it seems presents it that way but after looking in practice there is plenty of action by the diver (this may be learned and the diver is not aware of it over time).

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yes.

Trim is the position of the diver. Weight position (balance) is only one component.

 

[perpet1]

Yes.

Trim is the position of the diver. Weight position (balance) is only one component.

Mike my friend, we agree!

My point was simple, a horizontal ascent takes more then good trim as there ar many more factors. Without those a horizontal ascent would be impossible.


That said and to get back on the thread, fin pivots are possible even if you are perfectly trimmed because you are not employing the other techniques to maintain a horizontal attitude.

In the DIR word I would agree that such an exercise is a waste of time because you try never to get in a situation where you are not horizontal but that is not because you can't it is because you choose not to. I agree it is very nice to have the skill necessary to have that choice but for an entry level diver a fin pivot conditions them for basic bueyency control (key word being basic).


Cheers!
Pete

 

[detroit diver]

I know I started this but a DIR bash is not waht I had hoped this would turn into.

I only mentioned DIR because that is a basic part of their courses. If you read my post again, I also mention that others dive this way.

Don't turn this into a DIR debate. I didn't.

 

[detroit diver]

Don't worry about it perpet, all Detroit Diver knows how to do is insult posters and then try to sell the poster one of his classes. It's all part of the "create a need" aspect of GUE marketing.

Painter,

You can't even read. This isn't about DIR. It's about someone who can't comprehend a skill, and continues to argue about it anyway.

You're back to your conspiracy theory again. I have no class to sell.

 

[chrpai]

Painter,

You can't even read. This isn't about DIR. It's about someone who can't comprehend a skill, and continues to argue about it anyway.

You're back to your conspiracy theory again. I have no class to sell.

YOU are the one that said

One place that it is taught is the DIR Fundamentals class. It's one of the basic requirements of that class. Solid trim, and solid bouyancy control. Of course there are others that dive this way also.

Find some of the DIR divers in your area, and ask them to go for a dive. Then report back to us what you see.

Are you now denying that you've ever spammed newsgroups while coordinating DIR-F classes?

 

[detroit diver]

I assure you I am not wrong although with my extremly limited experience and brain power it may seem that way or it just may be my improper dive technique.

Now you yourself state that this is a skill that takes practice. The practice you speak so hightly of, is it limited to finding that perfect trim or are there techniques you must use? This is because it does not just happen once you have properly adjusted your trim. This is a skill that requires overt action on the part of the diver. I stated that yes, if you employ the proper technique then you can overcome the shift in your CB but with no action what you are saying is impossible.

But you are right I have not been graced by the almighty DIR. It is obvious that I must be Doing It Wrong.

Brain power-your choice of words. I never mentioned it.

Any skill takes practice. And someone to show you exactly what it takes to master the skill. Once you are in trim and have masterded the skill, THERE IS NO OVERT ACTION REQUIRED to rise and fall in the water column. No special technique required once you get into trim and balance.

It's frustrating listening to someone who has never seen, and has never experience a skill to tell you that it can't be done. My point was, instead of denying it on an internet board, go find someone who can show it to you. If you subscibe to the anti-DIR clan then find someone who is not DIR. I really don't care what their credentials are. My previous post was just an example of where to find it.

 

[detroit diver]

Originally Posted by detroit diver
Painter,

You can't even read. This isn't about DIR. It's about someone who can't comprehend a skill, and continues to argue about it anyway.

You're back to your conspiracy theory again. I have no class to sell.

YOU are the one that said
Quote:

One place that it is taught is the DIR Fundamentals class. It's one of the basic requirements of that class. Solid trim, and solid bouyancy control. Of course there are others that dive this way also.

Find some of the DIR divers in your area, and ask them to go for a dive. Then report back to us what you see.

Are you now denying that you've ever spammed newsgroups while coordinating DIR-F classes?

Painter,

Like I said-you can't read. "Of course there are others that dive this way also." I gave this person an example of where to find the information. Really simple. Take it or leave it.

Let's see. I'm not a GUE instructor. So what am I selling? That's what you originally posted now, wasn't it? Then you changed it to coordinate. And yes, I've posted about classes that are taking place in our area. On rec.scuba, on this board, on scubadiving.com, on diverlink, and others. Other than the nut-cases on rec.scuba (of which you were intimately involved), no one has ever accused me of "spamming".

 

[perpet1]

I only mentioned DIR because that is a basic part of their courses. If you read my post again, I also mention that others dive this way.

Don't turn this into a DIR debate. I didn't.

Actually you did but that is neither here nor there

Perpet,

You maybe cannot do this, and obviously you have never seen anyone do it, but those with the proper technique use it all the time.

One place that it is taught is the DIR Fundamentals class. It's one of the basic requirements of that class. Solid trim, and solid bouyancy control. Of course there are others that dive this way also.

Find some of the DIR divers in your area, and ask them to go for a dive. Then report back to us what you see.

Then you went on to imply that I was not diving properly like you know how I dive.

And by the way I understand the theory as well ans anyone on this board and that is not the point. I am not a god nor do I think I know it all but beuyency and trim is not a difficult concept. I know what your position is but you miss the point in that there is moree to this then trim alone.

But it seems to make you feel better if you think you are better the the rest of us.

Cheers!
Pete