Goliath Grouper Dust Ups and the Odd Swallowed Diver?

[aue-mike]

Mike, have you seen this very recent science article sitting on the JDC web server?

Uh - yes, I was quoting accurate ppm values cited in the study (Adams and Sonne 2013), averaged for all size classes of the 56 samples. I also was citing Evers et al. (2009), which addresses mercury levels in Belizean goliath grouper, and the fact the majority of subadult goliath grouper were below the FDA threshold based on samples in their study. The other seafood values I cited came from the FDA website. Regardless, my point was directed at your statement that goliath grouper "could not be sold for human consumption", which is factually incorrect. FDA advisories are one thing. Let me know when the FDA starts taking swordfish off restaurant menus and when canned albacore tuna is taken off grocery store shelves.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[boulderjohn]

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[RickI]

Things did seem somewhat adrift for a while there. Anyway, here is another fish story, from a good while back. Most of the real colorful stories are dated. This could be due to normal distortion in the retelling over the years and/or due to the higher abundance of jewfish and large ones in particularly in those times. I came across the following story in Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Feb 19, 1961 in a general Google.com search.

It describes a group attack on a boy skin diving with his father under some phosphate docks. Well the are gregarious and can stake out a kill as shows up in DumpsterDivers clip, still a group going after something as large as teen? The boy was inhaled about halfway into a grouper at which point the father started working on extracting him which he succeeded in doing. More details appear in the news account below.

Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Google News Archive Search

The article reminisces on the old days when jewfish were really common and an "average day" for four spearfishermen was bringing in 5000 lbs.? Seems like quite a lot for an average day even when monsters were super common. That could be say 10 to 15 of them, more? What size boat would you need and just the time it would take to move them around would be considerable. So, it seems to be a high estimate. Here is a kill from the Keys, noteworthy enough to play dress-up and have a picture taken and everything.

From: 5 Goliath Grouper Myths | Grouper Luna
The article at the above link presents various arguments against reinstituting a season on goliath grouper.

What would you estimate the combined weight of these monsters to be? I would guess under 3500 pounds. If jewfish were really common in Tampa Bay and if the shooters were very effective, who knows maybe they could top 5000 pounds a day during aggregations. Now you have to bring them aboard, get them off the boat and not sink the vessel while you're at it?

I just came across this shot of Don DeMaria's haul down in the Keys. He seemed to be most active in the 1980's but started shooting off Summerland Key in the early 1970's. I don't think that is 5000 pounds of fish but with larger individuals in abundance, he might have been able to do it? You can look at his catches over the years at the following link, it is interesting to see the sizes diminish.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/keyslibraries/sets/72157626700168332/with/5711534820/

He sure got a pile of sharks in 1985 in that one shot.


The FLMNH provides the following comments on hazards. Absent speared fish, I wonder just how common this stalking behavior is? Moving fast on deep breathholds I have encountered aggressive responses not that uncommonly. Still I think moving at slower speed, generating less noise and approaching more easily could well reduce this phenomena. I have become more cautious as I don't want to be detained on a breathhold dive, deep or otherwise. Scuba diving with them, jewfish usually just drift off without some dead fish in the water to gather their interest. Then there are all those old stories about people falling off docks, bridges, etc. and getting sucked in. Jewfish used to commonly inhabit such places and perhaps line fishermen conditioned them in these area to hit first and think sometime later?

"Danger to Humans

Very large goliath grouper have been observed to stalk divers and even conduct unsuccessful ambushes of the same. Large individuals of this species should be treated with caution."

"450 pound goliath grouper caught by Buddy Jenks at the Big Indian Rocks Fishing Pier, Florida (1976)
Donated by Kenneth Krysko"
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/ichthyology/gallery/Descript/GoliathGrouper/GoliathGrouper.html

Looks like these two could have just wrestled to see who had the weight advantage.

Any more experiences or stories out there? Again, I have no interest or desire in seeing a season on these big boys to be reinstituted. This is as much for curiosity as anything else. In time, a whole new series of folk stories may emerge, perhaps even based on some fact. Time will tell.

.

 

[danvolker]

RickI, to me, this "Asking for Anecdotes" of bad Jewfish behavior, is a way to bring out the worst in human attitudes and behaviors.....I can't help comparing this to YOU going back to ten years after the end of World War II, and running around Germany and the US, asking for anecdotal accounts people might have of Jewish people that had killed babies, or done any of the other evils CLAIMED by Joseph Goebbels and the Nazis----for anyone that did not study World War II, Goebbels created the most powerful propaganda machine that ever existed on the planet, and a big component of it was taking all the lore and nasty stereotypes about the jewish people, and exaggerating the appearance and threats in Posters spread throughout Germany--you would have Young handsome German men heroically protecting a young German girl from the ravages of an evil Jew that would look much like a rat, and like the embodiment of evil....The art campaign was both brilliant and evil in itself. The result, was that the German people came to believe that the Jews were inherently evil, and that the government SHOULD eradicate this threat from the face of the earth....and so the horrors committed by the Nazis went basically unchallenged by the people of Germany....
So here we have the Jewfish, which was fished practically to extinction with poor fisheries management, assisted by a culture that embraced Trophy fishing and the heroic feel of being a BIG GAME HUNTER...
After 20 years, it is finally starting to make a comeback, and RickI begins a campaign on the Internet, to look for the anecdotes that support the evil assessments of the BIG GAME HUNTING fisherman/saviors of 40 years ago ( like in your newspaper clippings). Should RickI be successful in finding lore and anecdotes he can PUBLICIZE about the jewfish, he will have created an important component of the present Propaganda NEEDS of the Fishing Lobby -- that wants the US to support the Mass KILLING( the harvesting if that sounds nicer to you) of Jewfish.

And yet, the vast majority of scuba divers that have had the chance to be close to a Jewfish, have found them to be social, friendly, and one of their absolute favorite creatures to commune with on a reef or wreck--a sort of underwater big dog, to play with.....So the foundational propaganda moves should NOT be appreciated.....My hope is that RickI is really just curious, and has no desire to assist in the creation of a dangerous form of propaganda....but it is my opinion, that this search for these anecdotes, can only bring out the absolute worst in human social actions....

 

[wspalding]

I've yet to see an aggressive Goliath Grouper. I dove with a guy a few weeks back that was able to remove a fish hook and line from a Goliath at the Toy box, which is pretty awesome.

 

[RickI]

Dan, I think you are getting a bit too worked up about all this, seriously. "Bad jewfish behavior" vs. NAZI propaganda? I thought I was on scubaboard not the National Enquirer on angel dust. Calm down and please get a grip. I have been in print and Internet publication for a dozen years, this may be a first in a public forum from a professional in the media. Privately, well that's a different matter.

I have thrown small sharks as a kid at spearfishermen raping the reef and leaving dead fish all over the bottom which I grew up on off Ft. Lauderdale. I debated along with Jean-Michel Cousteau and Norine Rouse against spearfishing practices at time in 1979 and in support of the ban on shooting jewfish. I am the last person you will find trying to support or expand the practice.

Still looking for credible stories, not diet precautions or bizarre attacks.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I think you are getting a bit too worked up about all this, seriously. "Bad jewfish behavior" vs. NAZI propaganda? I thought I was on scubaboard not the National Enquirer on angel dust. Calm down and please get a grip. I have been in print and Internet publication for a dozen years, this may be a first in a public forum from a professional in the media. Privately, well that's a different matter.

I have thrown small sharks as a kid at spearfishermen raping the reef and leaving dead fish all over the bottom which I grew up on off Ft. Lauderdale. I debated along with Jean-Michel Cousteau and Norine Rouse against spearfishing practices at time in 1979 and in support of the ban on shooting jewfish. I am the last person you will find trying to support or expand the practice.

Still looking for credible stories, not diet precautions or bizarre attacks.

RickI,
I did try to respond that I was not SAYING that I thought your INTENT was bad...I do not think you were purposely trying to get the fisherman the support to begin a mass slaughter of jewfish once again.
My concern is that there are too many spearfisherman on spearboard and Scubaboard, that WANT to begin culling/mass slaughter within the framework of an "accepted fishery management" ---- So if you were successful in gaining a large number of anecdotes and colorful new "lore" about the jewfish from today's scubadivers & freedivers, what you would ACCIDENTALLY be doing, is providing them with a FOUNDATION for a Propaganda campaign they would attempt to use to gain public support of a "season" to "harvest/mass kill" Jewfish.

The more the jewfish are depicted as a menace or nuisance or threat, the larger the % of the public that will not care if the fisherman want to begin a campaign to kill the jewfish--to "harvest" them.
The more the jewfish are depicted by divers as friendly, social, and like big happy dogs, the more people will end up personifying them in their minds, and the more "human" protections they will be afforded...just as dogs are afforded this protection because they are "man's best friend".

Because of movies like "Flipper", Dolphins have been personified to the point that American's hearing about dolphin slaughters by Japanese fisherman in the Cove, get so mad that many would be happy to get on a plane and join a mercenary team to machine gun the fisherman...

It's largely about the propaganda and how good or effective it is....the manipulation of imaging to create a culturally significant attitude and behaviors. Dolphins have this....Jewfish need it.
Stories about dolphins trying to get sexually frisky with people in aquariums would NOT help a social movement or large activist fund development, with a mission to END practices as seen on the Cove film.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Jewfish are huge nuisance to fisherman. They are opportunistic and target fish which have been compromised by a spear or by hook and line fisherman. They are extremely effective at taking fish in certain areas. In some popular locations, fisherman will lose maybe more than half their fish to jewfish.

When hook and line fisherman release under-sized bottom species, I am sure that jewfish target these individuals as they try to make it back to the bottom, so it is not just fish that are on a line that are taken .. not so different than sharks, I imagine.

It does not make the species evil, but similar to slapping someone's ill-trained dog on the nose (at the picnic), some fisherman feel they need to take matters into their own hands. This results in some mortality. Since hook and line fisherman out number spearfisherman by a huge margin, I would assume that hook and line fisherman may have a more significant influence than spearos in this regard. The fish can be hauled to the surface and wounded before release.

I doubt that the regulators are unduly influenced by the complaints of "thieving jewfish" and will make decisions based on good science.

Nobody wants the fish wiped out or slaughtered, but many people feel that the fishery for this very edible fish should be opened in a limited manner, WHEN the local population can support it. The fact that the population has rebounded incredibly well is undeniable.

I sense a growing resentment toward the species from the consumptive sector. Some people feel that if the government is so heavily influenced by “tree huggers” who view this fish as some kind of “gentle giant” (rather than an edible grouper) then.. they will just have to take matters into their own hands.. and thin the heard.

I know an old fisherman who stopped taking jewfish years before the moratorium was instituted. He said it was no longer appropriate to target the species. He said that any idiot could see the population was collapsing and that the government was too stupid to make a sensible and necessary legislative change. He felt it was unethical to continue to harvest the fish.

Now 25 -30 years later, he and some others are back to occasionally taking small ones for food (under 70 lbs). He again feels that the government is too out of touch to make the necessary and reasonable changes in legislation.

They are apparently very good to eat, are abundant and easy to target. They are filleted on the water and consumed by families and friends. Make no mistake, this is poaching; it is illegal and not something I support or engage in.

If the fish continues to grow in abundance and continues to be completely protected from take, I wonder if the mortality associated with “unlawful harvest” will be larger and less controllable than a reasonable, perpetually sustainable harvest that is regulated by the authorities. Obviously, fishing can not be allowed during the spawning aggregations.

Less jewfish may be killed if 99% of the fishing population intends to voluntarily comply with the regulations, rather than if 5-10% of the fishing population decides to “thin the heard”, haul the fish to the surface, stab in the gills and allow it to drift off.

It is difficult to catch poachers who return with illegal fillets, but it is essentially IMPOSSIBLE to catch fisherman who intend to simply kill the fish and leave it to feed the crabs.

So even though the “nuisance effect” is not a factor in the management of this species, it IS important that the general fishing population supports the regulations and voluntarily complies with the laws.

 

[danvolker]

All the more reason for those of us with nutritional understandings to PUSH the idea, that eating high mercury foods is a great way to embrace disease and stupidity. It is the "right way" to influence the masses. Creating a fishery to be utilized by only those that those that are fine eating fish with Mercury above FDA allowed limits, would have to be a fool's errand. Once the public knows this, I'd think it would be politically dangerous for the larger players to endorse such killing, just for the sake of killing--knowing full well the POSITIVE TOURISM effects the mass slaughters would destroy. AUE-Mike will hate this idea, as he does not accept the high Mercury levels as being bad....Rather than argue it's merits, the important thing is getting a large population to support the correct outcome. If we feel the correct outcome is NO harvest of Jewfish, then the high Mercury argument is effective, and useful. Talking about tabulated projections and pages full of research, will not carry the attention of the masses, and it will leave only the lobbying groups to read through this--and they will become the voting blocks for the issue. I am not comfortable with this.


Fisherman can go fish on reefs far from the shipwrecks that have been re-claimed by jewfish and sharks, and enjoy much less interference. In a healthy marine ecosystem, an artificial reef/shipwreck is ALWAYS going to have many opportunistic predators resident or transient--the fisherman would never do well on a site like a fishing shipwreck, where it has never been fished before. Allow destruction of the fish species that populate many of the trophic levels, and without competition, the fisherman can be happy....Personally I'd rather the ocean was optimally healthy, and the fisherman were unhappy

 

[aue-mike]

AUE-Mike will hate this idea, as he does not accept the high Mercury levels as being bad....Rather than argue it's merits, the important thing is getting a large population to support the correct outcome. If we feel the correct outcome is NO harvest of Jewfish, then the high Mercury argument is effective, and useful.

Dan - let it go. You apparently got all bent out of shape when I disagreed with your statements using published studies supporting my statements. I tried to make nice, and will continue to do so, if you chill out and just let it go.

---------- Post added August 3rd, 2014 at 04:37 PM ----------

Jewfish are huge nuisance to fisherman. They are opportunistic and target fish which have been compromised by a spear or by hook and line fisherman. They are extremely effective at taking fish in certain areas. In some popular locations, fisherman will lose maybe more than half their fish to jewfish.

True, but so what? And thankfully fisheries management is not based on nuisance control. If it were, we would allow folks to go out and irresponsibly whack numerous other species. If it is not jewfish, it's sharks or barracuda. And then those bastard dolphins that follow shallow-water fishermen eating all their released fish. Or amberjack and red snapper that won't allow you to get a bait to the bottom to catch a grouper. Here's a bit of advice - if one wants to get a fish with the minimal amount of work, money, and nuisance, they should just head on over to their Publix or local grocery story and pick up one -- hell, they even have it filleted and ready to cook! And if a person was losing that many fish to jewfish and continually fish in the same spot expecting a different result, perhaps that person is a very slow learner. There are MANY places to fish where jewfish issues are minimal.

I sense a growing resentment toward the species from the consumptive sector. Some people feel that if the government is so heavily influenced by “tree huggers” who view this fish as some kind of “gentle giant” (rather than an edible grouper) then.. they will just have to take matters into their own hands.. and thin the heard.


If the fish continues to grow in abundance and continues to be completely protected from take, I wonder if the mortality associated with “unlawful harvest” will be larger and less controllable than a reasonable, perpetually sustainable harvest that is regulated by the authorities. Obviously, fishing can not be allowed during the spawning aggregations.


So even though the “nuisance effect” is not a factor in the management of this species, it IS important that the general fishing population supports the regulations and voluntarily complies with the laws.

Allowing a fishery on a species that likely can't support much fishing pressure -- certainly WAY less pressure that would potentially pacify eager recreational and commercial fishermen -- solely on the notion it will control or mitigate poaching is ludicrous. There are seasons and bag limits for many species, as well as other requirements if one were to sell their catch commercially. All of these regulations are likely violated daily. Like you, I know of many who have fished over their limits, retain fish out of season, outright poach, and/or sold their catch illegally. If we were to have an accurate estimate of this unreported catch, it would likely be shocking. Then there are the other stupid cases, such as killing dolphins and turtles -- there was just a documented case of a sea turtle shot not just once, but twice by a speargun. You just can't fix stupid, and there is a lot of stupid out in the world. In any case, the mortality from the "unlawful harvest" you mention is one of the reasons the bright outlook for jewfish has been tempered in recent years.