Ginnie Springs diver missing - Florida

[Biotech Diver]

I’d like to know. If the recovery teams were able to release information and statistics maybe we’d know

Yes that would be helpful.

 

[Biotech Diver]

If that’s bad, you should see how the people of S FL dive

All this said, it’s unfortunate that thorough incident reports are infrequently published. I wish the speculation stayed hush for a few days but that seems nigh unavoidable in this day and age.

I admit I’ve seen some dumb things divers do here in SFL. I have been on several deep dives where people came up with almost no air left in the tank and a dive computer that locked them out. Then they are upset the boat captain won’t let them do the second dive.

 

[tursiops]

I admit I’ve seen some dumb things divers do here in SFL. I have been on several deep dives where people came up with almost no air left in the tank and a dive computer that locked them out. Then they are upset the boat captain won’t let them do the second dive.

LOL. And you have to ask why there are more cave-diving deaths per 1000 cave dives in FL?

 

[rob191]

I would wager that unless you are a local instructor to Mexico you don't have a clue how many deaths there are to even begin to compare. Also, the logistics of getting your own car to drive to sites and learning spanish, figuring out where to go and who to pay / where to get keys etc etc and the fact that lots of popular sites wont even let you dive without a guide likely makes it so that a much higher percentage of cave dives in Mexico occur with highly trained guides instead of just trained diving groups which increases safety while reducing freedom and increasing cost of everything.

Regarding the map, obviously there is a map. There are maps of almost every explored part of every cave, few explorers lay line and then don't bother surveying and making at least a stick map especially when there's software to do it all for you. Many maps are not given out (for better or worse) unless you've proven your competence and know the right people. The reasoning is to protect the cave and reduce incidents. And although I hate not having all the maps myself, I can understand the dilemma and it's easy to see the damage from increased traffic especially when the divers are not trained enough or don't care enough to not cause damage. There are a lot more than 2 restrictions to get to 5500' and the cave is delicate and not extremely beat up (yet). If you're qualified to be in the back section of ginnie and interested enough then you would easily already have found where the continuation is, it's not hidden and is very easy to find without the map.

 

[PfcAJ]

There are a LOT of caves, a LOT of cave-diving excursion outfits, a LOT of foreign tourists, and low costs -- including getting there.
Why are there more deaths per 1000 dives in FL? I dunno, maybe it is the attitude of the people diving the FL caves? Not likely to be equipment, or training, or the caves themselves.....what is left?

Fl is generally deeper than Mexico caves.

I’d wager that the depth results in narcosis being a bigger factor and it pushes people toward CCR sooner.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Also, the logistics of getting your own car to drive to sites and learning spanish, figuring out where to go and who to pay / where to get keys etc etc and the fact that lots of popular sites wont even let you dive without a guide likely makes it so that a much higher percentage of cave dives in Mexico occur with highly trained guides instead of just trained diving groups which increases safety while reducing freedom and increasing cost of everything.

I think the logistics is a big part of it. One of my cave country buddies won't even consider just renting tanks and going off to sites (granted tourist sites that one of us that has been to before) on our own. So all of his Mexico cave diving is guided.

I do wonder if our lack of accessible caves push people to go farther? In Mexico if I run out of lines to explore in the caves I know, I can hire a guide and add a new cave to my list. And do that for years without running out of caves. All while never leaving the range of a single stage swim dive.

 

[Caveeagle]

The group of about ~10-12 IUCRR divers who end up doing the recoveries in FL. Let's face it this is almost a uniquely FL issue. The Mexican cave diving fatality rate is a fraction of the FL rate. The cave diving fatality rate for rest of the world is even lower still. Instead of blaming the recovery divers for not publishing "reports", perhaps the energy would be better directed at asking why FL has so many cave diving fatalities in the first place.

I am not sure the assertion is correct that there are more fatalities in Fl vs Mexico. If we just look at the last couple years. I know of at least three fatalities in Mexico, where this (I believe) is the first FL incident in the last 24 months. (Just from memory)..

Just a few thoughts for those who insist on making FL vs Mexico comparisons.
-Many cave divers play in both sand boxes, so stop acting like they are isolated samples of divers.
-FL has more deep, and CCR divers..
-Mexico has a lot more professional guides, and a higher percent of guided dives..
-Mexico has way more new exploration sites, for anyone pushing for that. Where most folks doing exploration in FL are taking on a lot higher risk to get to virgin cave.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I am not sure the assertion is correct that there are more fatalities in Fl vs Mexico. If we just look at the last couple years. I know of at least three fatalities in Mexico, where this (I believe) is the first FL incident in the last 24 months. (Just from memory)..

There was the incident with the Chinese team at Manatee about a year ago, and someone died in Jackson Blue the middle of last year IIRC.

 

[Nirvana]

I’m not sure I see the point in this Florida / Mexico argument, in the context of the accident being discussed.

Does anyone have any reason to believe the victim belonged to a group that promoted a culture of unsafe diving practices? Or that the victim had received inadequate training, in particular by an instructor in Florida, that contributed to the fatality?

If the answer to any of those questions is positive, it would perhaps point towards a systemic problem that the cave diving community would be well served to be alerted about.

If the answer is negative, it seems to be irrelevant to the case wether Florida or Mexico has a higher fatality rate.

 

[rjack321]

I’m not sure I see the point in this Florida / Mexico argument, in the context of the accident being discussed.

Does anyone have any reason to believe the victim belonged to a group that promoted a culture of unsafe diving practices? Or that the victim had received inadequate training, in particular by an instructor in Florida, that contributed to the fatality?

If the answer to any of those questions is positive, it would perhaps point towards a systemic problem that the cave diving community would be well served to be alerted about.

If the answer is negative, it seems to be irrelevant to the case wether Florida or Mexico has a higher fatality rate.

Well there are certainly awful instructors in FL (although Mexico has plenty of terrible divers as well they mostly end up as cavern guides not actually teaching cave diving)

And these kinds of accidents keep happening in FL and not in other places to the same degree

And there is a persistent "circle the wagons" attitude which is preventing any reliable reporting on cave diving accidents in general and FL incidents are especially bad at this.

I guess we will never know if there's a pattern here worth uncovering