Ginnie Springs diver missing - Florida

[DanBMW]

Correct. I was referring to "transparency" within the community in which the accidents occur. We share the results of military parachuting accident investigations within the military branches to learn from them and, if necessary, change procedures or safety features. I believe the FAA investigates civilian parachuting accidents and shares that with agencies like the USPA, etc. Check me if I'm wrong, but there is not an agency that investigates the cause of most SCUBA accidents and releases detailed data related to those accidents for improvement of the sport, etc.

The FAA does very little in the way of skydiving investigating. Mostly to just determine if broad guidelines were followed and the pilot was in compliance. The USPA does a limited amount and that is shared with the skydiving community. There is always a lot of speculating after an incident and sometimes there is video and witnesses. Like SCUBA unfortunately, many times we just don't know the actual cause of the fatality. Lots of good guesses and they do sometimes help in future safety advisors.

 

[boulderjohn]

but there is pretty much ZERO investigation into why a person dies during a dive?

That depends upon the police. It is like any other fatality. If it looks like a heart attack, the investigation will be minimal. Otherwise, it could be quite extensive. Their reports are usually obtainable through FOI. In a few cases, those investigations have led to prosecution.

My entry into reporting incidents began a number of years ago when I was with a cave diving group in the vicinity of an incident (fortunately, as it turned out, non-fatal). After the victim was airlifted out, the investigation began on the spot. I would guess there were a dozen police there. One of the divers in my group was a local expert who worked with the police frequently on dive incidents, and he was mostly in charge. The police took notes while we recovered and analyzed the victim's gear and announced our findings. Few of the police had any expertise in diving, so we spent a lot of time answering technical questions.

The police left the site with a lot of information, the diver's gear, etc. I don't know what they concluded because I did not go to FOI act to get the report.

 

[KevinNM]

Good question. A better one would be why is there an immediate investigation into parachuting accidents as the FAA descends on the scene, conducts a through investigation then issues detailed reports on the conditions of the jump, the rigging of the jumper, what failed and why, but there is pretty much ZERO investigation into why a person dies during a dive? Both sports are inherently dangerous. We even call dive gear "life saving equipment", and rightly so.

I don't ponder these questions with the end game of "oversight" or to hold people accountable for others' poor choices, etc. God knows I support personal accountability pretty much without exception. However, there are lessons to be learned here that could save the lives of others, but some of that info is held really close to the vest...or not obtained at all. When you have an agency like DAN (not picking on them, just an example) raking in about $12 million per year, it seems they may have the capital and clout to advocate for something that better informs divers about accidents and what caused them besides the occasional aforementioned diving accident article in their complimentary magazine.

I recently went through the list of FAA reports on parachute related incidents in California for a couple of years a few months ago. "Detailed report" is not what I would would call them. Number of people involved are often vague, number of injures or fatalities in the header often doesn't match the narrative, suspect causes usually not provided, operator almost never identified, equipment almost never identified, etc.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I recently went through the list of FAA reports on parachute related incidents in California for a couple of years a few months ago. "Detailed report" is not what I would would call them. Number of people involved are often vague, number of injures or fatalities in the header often doesn't match the narrative, suspect causes usually not provided, operator almost never identified, equipment almost never identified, etc.

Well to be fair to the FAA, skydivers are just a living TFOA.

 

[Scraps]

The author misses a huge difference between those two groupings. When the police or military report on an incident, it was an incident which they organized, planned, and executed.

If I were to have a cave diving incident, none of the 3 agencies from which I have certifications would have had anything to do with the organizing, planning, and execution of the dive. How could they report on something they had nothing to do with?

Another important difference is the military's ability to partition off the safety investigation from disciplinary proceedings. They can compel cooperation with safety investigations because what's honestly reported to safety investigators can't be used against someone in a court martial or nonjudicial punishment proceeding. I suppose liability would be another difference.

 

[DiveProKoko]

The FAA does very little in the way of skydiving investigating. Mostly to just determine if broad guidelines were followed and the pilot was in compliance. The USPA does a limited amount and that is shared with the skydiving community. There is always a lot of speculating after an incident and sometimes there is video and witnesses. Like SCUBA unfortunately, many times we just don't know the actual cause of the fatality. Lots of good guesses and they do sometimes help in future safety advisors.

That's interesting. I assumed (my bad , haha) the FAA had more comprehensive reports than that. When we investigated them in them military it was much more thorough and I assumed (again, my bad) that the FAA did at least the same level of investigation.

 

[DiveProKoko]

Another important difference is the military's ability to partition off the safety investigation from disciplinary proceedings. They can compel cooperation with safety investigations because what's honestly reported to safety investigators can't be used against someone in a court martial or nonjudicial punishment proceeding. I suppose liability would be another difference.

That's a dynamic that we have to consider when we investigate uses of police force, etc. The officers can be compelled by their Department to provide information related their incident to determine if they acted within or outside policy, etc. However, they have their Constitutional rights related to self incrimination, etc for incidents that are being looked for potential criminal charges against them. So we have to make sure we don't blur the lines between the two and that investigators looking at one aspect of the investigation don't have access to the other, and vice versa.