Genesis 2.2 vs Seacraft vs Magnus

[jale]

Hi
Problems with scooter and cave is to think about kicking back.
So if you only get one, as Tbone said, they are "conveniences".
If you want to go further than kicking distance you need extra gas or/and another scooter. So extra budget.
And then, when the gas becomes a problem, the next point is getting a rebreather. So extra extra budget.
But then, you can get longer dives and need top of the range machine like the Genesis but at this level, you need two of them...
extra extra extra budget
So for the OP, if you have the money it is fine for you to get any dpv you like but even with plenty of money, don't shortcut experience.

 

[_Ralph]

My only complaint with Dive-x is Ben and ?? (Can’t remember his name) on the phone describing what a ‘little nose up’ was before I bought my last few DPV (yup, 2 blacktips). Couldn’t justifying spending 7k on a 3hr scooter at the time, but could justify 3K on 2 2hr scooters..

My CNC shop fixed the trim issue, firmware took care of the ‘safe (non)start’ issue.

No other complaints!

Re the ‘dinged’ sealing surfaces.. well that will happen to pretty much any DPV if you bang the components around.... not specific to the BlackTip...

_R

 

[grantctobin]

My only complaint with Dive-x is Ben and ?? (Can’t remember his name) on the phone describing what a ‘little nose up’ was before I bought my last few DPV (yup, 2 blacktips). Couldn’t justifying spending 7k on a 3hr scooter at the time, but could justify 3K on 2 2hr scooters..

My CNC shop fixed the trim issue, firmware took care of the ‘safe (non)start’ issue.

No other complaints!

Re the ‘dinged’ sealing surfaces.. well that will happen to pretty much any DPV if you bang the components around.... not specific to the BlackTip...

_R

“Little nose up” lol

 

[rddvet]

You're outside of the US, so that makes things a little harder but you can get really good deals on used Suex scooters around this time. We bought my wife EE's rental XJ37 a few years ago. Hers is the 2017/18 model with the blue body. EE was upgrading to the newer model with the red near the handle so we got a sweet deal and since the guys at EE know us well they gave her the one with the least hours on it. Case McKinley at D3 diving (and the US suex rep) just posted a few used scooters for sale because the new 2020 version is coming out. Even if he sold them all that means places like EE may be upgrading their DPVs soon. When I got our scooters about 3 years ago I was primarily interested in the Bonex and Suex. I thought the Genesis was exceptionally innovative, but at the time there was no good local rep for them. There was also talk of trigger issues, which have since been fixed I've read. For me the biggest selling point of the Suex's other than the ride and the great used prices was the battery display both on the battery and on the hull. It seems minor but it's important for me. I could look at the lights during the dive and see my battery consumption. I could also look at the battery post dive and actually keep track of battery consumption on different dives. It allowed me to know if I did or didn't have to recharge the battery for the next dive (therefore decreasing battery cycling), allowed me to plan my dive more safely, and to monitor the health of the battery. Using it for planning wasn't initially important because gas was always the limiting factor. Now on a rebreather, the battery in my DPV can become the limiting factor in dive planning. I know that Genesis has an external battery display. Last I looked it was an upgrade. Not sure if it's standard yet or not. Many people dive scooters with no way to check the battery during or after a dive, some people add WattsUp meters to monitor the battery post-dive, but for me the ability to check battery usage is critical and put the Suexes above others.
on edit: The price I got our two used Suexes was good enough that if I chose to resell them now, they'd fetch pretty much close to the same price as I paid.

 

[Jon Nellis]

... If you buy a Blacktip for $2k, and you rent a Genesis/Magnus/Seacraft/Bonex/Suex/whatever else for 60 diving days, you have the same $8k invested as if you bought one of those scooters but all of those big dives were done with a backup scooter that increases your safety factor while cave diving, and you get a cheap/small/good enough DPV for use when running around at home...

Let's run that thought to completion (i.e. when you stop diving) At the end of all those years of diving, you have a "cheap/small/good enough DPV" with minimal resale value, that you've put up with for years, with its lackluster performance and features, plus the expense and inconvenience of numerous shaft seal changes over the years and miscellaneous other short comings. Spend $6K renting high performance DPVs over that time and if you sell yours for $1000, you are out $7K.

...OR

You buy a high end DPV for $8K that exceeds all the performance requirements you will likely ever ask of it. You never miss or limit a dive due to conditions exceeding its capabilities and it's a genuine joy to dive. If at some point down the road you need a minimalist backup DPV, you buy a reliable, basic used DPV that fills the need for $2k and you let your buddies borrow it on other dives until they get hooked on not having to kick anymore and get their own. When you retire from diving, you sell the $8k DPV for $4K and the backup for the same $1K. You are only out $5k instead of $7K and you've enjoyed a SWEET DPV for EVERY dive over your long diving career, instead of putting up with a "cheap/small/good enough" entry level DPV for years. (priceless).

There are a lot of scenarios in between and not everyone can drop big money on a DPV. For some, they can't justify more than a $200 eBay Sea-Doo knock-off. The possibilities that a high performance DPV opens up is worth the expense to some people, as doing barrel rolls at high speed with a playful family of dolphins in the wild or having the range to get away from the typical dive sites and stumble upon an unknown shark nursery or a spot where dozens of huge eagle rays and sting rays flying in formation regularly reside (a few of my most epic encounters) is worth the price of admission. Others are satisfied with meh performance and there are those that don't belong anywhere near a DPV. Everyone needs to figure out for themselves where they fall on that spectrum, not be told what to buy or do by strangers on a forum that don't understand their needs or desires.

 

[_Ralph]

“Little nose up” lol

Should have more accurately said ‘plumb bob up!’ When asked specifically about 9/12ah dewalt batteries and fresh water... haven’t had much luck in saltwater either, but then they said a little nose down ....

_R

 

[gbeasley]

My input would have you consider - are you planning to fly to Mexico and Florida or drive. If flying, the Genesis would get my vote. I normally dive an intro scooter Subgravity Aquaprop L $2600 ($1800 NiMh) which is very compact and only weights about 13#. It's like another piece of equipment clipped on my body. I literally do not want to dive without it. Easily stows under a seat on a typical dive boat. I get 200 minutes of cruise time. However, when I fly, I have to use a NiMh battery that cuts the time to 75 min. OK for one dive but if trying to get in 4 a day, it doesn't give me much range. When I learned that the Warp Core battery on the Genesis was OK for flying, that alone sealed the deal for me. If I'm going to spend $3000 for 2 weeks of diving in Bonaire, I wanted more time on the reef and less time at the Airbnb charging the scooter for the next dive. A battery change for $350 on a real scooter?? ( Aquaprop L is $1200, NiMh is $675). The magnet drive on the Genesis is like a perpetual machine. Pull out the assembly and spin the prop, it will continue spinning on those ceramic bearings until the cows come home. I don't have to worry about fishing line damaging the seal and flooding. Anyway, I love my Aquaprop L for what it does and now I love my Genesis 2.1 for what it does. And can I say "Fast" Wow!

 

[geoff w]

I was also looking at a DPV but for shore diving. Is there a reason you recommend the blacktip tech model over the travel (shorter) or exploration (more batteries)?...

Most of my Blacktip dives have been shore dives, with surf ranging from knee to almost chest high. The original "Travel" Blacktip is lighter, so easier walk from car, stairs, across soft sand, etc, and probably easier to manage in the surf to get out to the dive site. Pretty easy to power in and out through surf with the Blacktip, and deal with fins once well outside where waves are breaking. Even though it doesn't static trim horizontal, absolutely no problems once underway. When I get to the reefs, I'll clip the nose off sidemount-style to my left chest D-ring, cruise around looking in all the nooks and crannies, then unclip and power off to the next reef. If you're going out with your Blacktip in chest high to overhead surf, you probably want to turn off safe start so it powers up slightly quicker to pull you out through the waves. With 12 AH Dewalt batteries, you can go for a couple hours of diving before you get to the half battery indication

I've got a Tech tube on order, but just plan to use it for underwater debris removal dives so I don't have to worry about the body smashing in to me (or rocks) when hooking up lift bags to abandoned traps surrounded by big rocks. I busted off an exposed on/off switch in the surge on another brand scooter while trying to get an abandoned trap sent to the surface

Before getting the Blacktip, besides scooter cost my biggest concern was having any buddies to dive with on scooter dives. At the price, a lot of people are buying, and with everyone still figuring out the nuances, it's easy to connect with other Blacktip local divers if any of your regular dive buddies with Blacktips aren't available for an outing. Our initial group buy was for a dozen, several more bought Blacktips after seeing ours, and I know there's another local order for at least half a dozen more that should start shipping once Dive-X starts getting caught up from the Covid manufacturing and shipping shutdown

 

[rjack321]

My input would have you consider - are you planning to fly to Mexico and Florida or drive. If flying, the Genesis would get my vote.

I will reiterate again - do not fly a scooter, 2nd laptop, multiple strobes, or more than one camera to Mexico especially Cancun. You will pay dearly for bringing anything expensive and professional looking into the country.

 

[rddvet]

I will reiterate again - do not fly a scooter, 2nd laptop, multiple strobes, or more than one camera to Mexico especially Cancun. You will pay dearly for bringing anything expensive and professional looking into the country.

You can also easily rent XK1s, XJ37s, Bonex, and Seacraft scooters from shops in both Akumal (zero gravity), Playa (protec), and Tulum (Third Dimension and Protec). I'm sure there are other shops that rent scooters as well. A scooter is never really anything I've ever considered travelling with. I could see bringing it to some OW type desitnations that may not have them. Sure, it sucks to pay $100/day, but that's alot less than what it'll cost if they damage your scooter.

For me flying with a scooter is a great idea, but nothing I'd likely do.

I was actually thinking about this thread while scootering Ginnie with my wife. Everybody talks about run time at top speed, but to me that's not that important. Available power and quality of battery are important. We did a 2 hour dive in Ginnie never coming off the trigger and used 10% battery power per scooter. My scooter never went over speed 2 other than for a couple seconds being bumped up to 4 to get through the ear and the lips. My wife's scooter never went over speed 3 except for brielfy as well. We love to scooter slow and look at things, but like having reserve power when needed. But looking at max range at max speed doesn't mean much to us. One issue we did have is since we scooter so slow, when she was scootering out on her XJ37 at speed 2-3 my XK1 was down at one. I found the increase in speed going from speed 1 to speed 2 is dramatic at those low settings. Just a tiny nudge of the speed dial and I was going too fast to match her. So I put dependability/ease of service, power not necessarily speed, and dynamic, accurate speed control as my go to wants. Behind those the ability to see externally and when removing the battery how much power was used is next important. I think you'll find those in the Genesis, Suex, and Seacraft scooters.