Genesis 2.2 vs Seacraft vs Magnus

[tbone1004]

I was also looking at a DPV but for shore diving. Is there a reason you recommend the blacktip tech model over the travel (shorter) or exploration (more batteries)?

I might take superlyte up on his offer to demo the Genesis, but I might end up spending the 7k price difference to get a rebreather. I have the optima cm unit on my radar.

The exploration gets you the range, but to @Jon Nellis 's point it doesn't have the oomph so for me it's a strange decision and not really something I'd bother with. For cave diving, the travel version is basically unusable. In this whole thread I've stated repeatedly that the Blacktip is a perfect entry level scooter that will eventually grow into a backup scooter when you invest in a big boy scooter. The travel is not long enough to trim flat so the tail sags. If they trim tail down they're essentially unusable as a tow scooter.

 

[Superlyte27]

I misunderstood, though I did read it all.

Here's the thing, and @Jon Nellis pointed it out. Jon's DPV's are engineered in such a way that they almost seem too good to be true in terms of their raw power and efficiency. His tail cone design is disgustingly good. He is also 100% correct that something like a Black Tip will struggle in JB if it is pumping, and you will struggle to get through the lips at Ginnie, etc. I say struggle because it is comparably powerful to a UV18/26. You will still make forward progress, but probably around 100fpm max from my experience in those caves with a UV26...

I would have no problem using the Blacktip in the caves if you're learning cave DPV and you are not barreling back to 5,000ft. One thing that hasn't been mentioned that will again piss Jon off, but so be it, is what some of my buddies do when they have to fly in. Just rent a big primary for $100/day. Buy something like a Black Tip for diving caves like Little River, Twin, if much of Hole in the Wall, or other lower flow/shorter cave systems, and if you plan on barreling back to the end of JB, or doing a bunch of diving in one day, or whatever, then rent something like a Genesis from @Superlyte27 or whatever other big primary scooter you want to rent and let them eat that cost. If you buy a Blacktip for $2k, and you rent a Genesis/Magnus/Seacraft/Bonex/Suex/whatever else for 60 diving days, you have the same $8k invested as if you bought one of those scooters but all of those big dives were done with a backup scooter that increases your safety factor while cave diving, and you get a cheap/small/good enough DPV for use when running around at home.
If you're committed to big cave dives now, then buy a real scooter, but if you look at the math above, I just can't recommend in good conscience that you buy an exploration grade scooter. Is it better? No doubt, but you have to decide for yourself if the $6k is worth it. It's literally whether one of those scooter is 3-4x better than the Blacktip. If we had this discussion a year ago? Very different ballgame, but this little thing literally broke the entire DPV market.

It broke the market so well we're not seeing them anywhere. Lol

8k just isn't that big of a deal to some people willing to buy right and be happy the first time.

 

[Superlyte27]

I was also looking at a DPV but for shore diving. Is there a reason you recommend the blacktip tech model over the travel (shorter) or exploration (more batteries)?

I might take superlyte up on his offer to demo the Genesis, but I might end up spending the 7k price difference to get a rebreather. I have the optima cm unit on my radar.

I'll let you test drive the Optima CM and a Genesis. I'm a dealer for both.

 

[tbone1004]

It broke the market so well we're not seeing them anywhere. Lol

8k just isn't that big of a deal to some people willing to buy right and be happy the first time.

I mean, the tech version came out in the middle of covid, so I'd give it a bit, but I can honestly say that I've seen more of them in the last month in NC alone than I've seen Genesis scooters in the last 10 years of cave diving... I wish it wasn't the case, and hopefully it changes soon, but Genesis owners on the east coast are quite rare.

 

[Superlyte27]

I mean, the tech version came out in the middle of covid, so I'd give it a bit, but I can honestly say that I've seen more of them in the last month in NC alone than I've seen Genesis scooters in the last 10 years of cave diving... I wish it wasn't the case, but you are truly the only person I know in cave country who owns one... Hopefully that changes soon

Jon would know better, but I know several Genesis owners in Florida. I also had a buyer in CA and VA. Plus about half a dozen people I consider friends in FL. I'm in cave country 3-5 times per week, being a FL resident, so easier to see what's really hitting the caves. Hard to be an outsider and keep up with the numbers.

 

[tbone1004]

Jon would know better, but I know several Genesis owners in Florida. I also had a buyer in CA and VA. Plus about half a dozen people I consider friends in FL. I'm in cave country 3-5 times per week, being a FL resident, so easier to see what's really hitting the caves. Hard to be an outsider and keep up with the numbers.

oh I know there are some out there but until you started selling them a year or two ago I didn't know of any actual local dealers that you could touch and feel one. I've seen a couple in NC, but it just seemed to never catch on in cave country. Mountains of them on the west coast, same with Dive Xtras since they're in the discussion as well and are equally as uncommon in cave country.

 

[Superlyte27]

Well, the rep was a goober before me. You know, the guy arrested for selling to libyans? He wasn't much of a cave diver.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I've played briefly in a pool with a Blacktip. For what it is and its price it is a great little scooter for basic OW. I wouldn't recommend it for anything more than limited usage shorter penetrations in most cave diving. Especially if there is higher flow. It just doesnt have the thrust or battery time for longer dives. For caves I'd say get a higher end scooter.

 

[rjack321]

I mean, the tech version came out in the middle of covid, so I'd give it a bit, but I can honestly say that I've seen more of them in the last month in NC alone than I've seen Genesis scooters in the last 10 years of cave diving... I wish it wasn't the case, and hopefully it changes soon, but Genesis owners on the east coast are quite rare.

They are budget. But there's a long list of complaints about them on FB, dinged sealing surfaces, bad firmware updates, loose potting material, blank screens. Not sure I would put them into the life support category as they are still new and teething.

 

[tbone1004]

Well, the rep was a goober before me. You know, the guy arrested for selling to libyans? He wasn't much of a cave diver.

painfully aware... and he also pissed off several in cave country so even if he wanted to be, was a bit of persona non grata...

@rjack321 agreed on them being budget scooters, obviously they are at the price, but the question is what you do with the $6k. DPV's for normal range DPV diving aren't life support, they're conveniences. Always plan to kick out unless you have a backup DPV.

What I will say is that I don't own or intend to purchase a blacktip because I have a SS Viper and UV26. The UV26 is being converted to a Cuda motor and ESC along with power tool batteries. The WarpCore is enough of a tipping point that if I was in the market, I'd be getting a Genesis, but I can't justify the money right now. I actually think the Genesis would be the only high end DPV I'd personally look at. DiveX has the annoying trigger and gear shifting *which I will have to continue to deal with on mine, but I've had them for a while. SS is just too far behind the times. Bonex is nice but batteries suck. Suex has IMO the best trigger on the market with the N handle, but still proprietary batteries. Genesis gets a Made in USA dpv, don't have to open the hull to charge, has the new monitor system which is great, and the WarpCore fixes the battery problem. I scooter with both hands regularly for cave diving, so the trigger system would take some getting used to for that, but worthwhile.