Gear dependancy and additional training
- Thread starter Teamcasa
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
OP
Maybe this analogy will help.
Gear is nothing more than tools. Tools that allow us to dive.
If you have a flat tire and you need to put on the spare. However, the only tools you have are the ones that came with your car.
You are an excellent mechanic as a profession and remove and install wheels everyday with the aid of hydraulic hoists and air powered impact wrenchs. Are you less capable of changing the tire with hand tools? No.
Turning this around, you have the same flat and but have no idea how to change the tire, is the problem your available tools? No.
Gear is nothing more than tools. Tools that allow us to dive.
If you have a flat tire and you need to put on the spare. However, the only tools you have are the ones that came with your car.
You are an excellent mechanic as a profession and remove and install wheels everyday with the aid of hydraulic hoists and air powered impact wrenchs. Are you less capable of changing the tire with hand tools? No.
Turning this around, you have the same flat and but have no idea how to change the tire, is the problem your available tools? No.
- Messages
- 6,921
- Reaction score
- 25
- # of dives
- I just don't log dives
Aside from swapping tables for a computer, I'm not sure there's anything in SCUBA that's comparable to an air/manual wrench and jack. I've seem people diving with all sorts of useless crap, but it doesn't seem to improve any skills and usually just increases task loading.
As JeffG mentioned, assuming you can move stuff around, any BC should work just fine. I'm pretty fussy about regulators just because the water is really cold here, but assuming any sort of normal diving, pretty much any reg should work OK.
Is there any specific equipment/skill trade you're thinking about?
Terry
Well, I guess one question is how much of good trim is skill, and how much is equipment. If my equipment is beautiful balanced and it makes it trivial for me to stay in good trim, is there any skill involved? On the other hand, you can have well balanced equipment and have a diver who flexes at the hips and drops their knees and kicks the coral that way, so there is some skill required there.
The statement that the equipment has helped them "hide" a problem puzzles me. If body posture is an issue, then trim will improve with better balanced equipment, but it still won't be good. If posture is perfect but the equipment precludes staying horizontal, then the skill will be there, but be camouflaged by bad equipment choices. Trim and buoyancy seem to me to be produced from a mixture of properly configured gear and good personal skills, and if you are going to term knowing how to balance your equipment out a skill, then I guess it's all skill. But it becomes kind of a circular argument, in a way. When I had a drysuit with the exhaust valve on the front of the suit, the only way I could vent it was bolt upright and leaning a little backward. Was my skill deficient because I couldn't control my buoyancy as well in that suit as in one with the vent in a better place, or was my knowledge deficient because I bought a suit with the dump valve in the wrong place (or, as was the case, was the drysuit manufacturer's knowledge deficient for putting the dump valve in a completely stupid position on a custom suit
)?
The statement that the equipment has helped them "hide" a problem puzzles me. If body posture is an issue, then trim will improve with better balanced equipment, but it still won't be good. If posture is perfect but the equipment precludes staying horizontal, then the skill will be there, but be camouflaged by bad equipment choices. Trim and buoyancy seem to me to be produced from a mixture of properly configured gear and good personal skills, and if you are going to term knowing how to balance your equipment out a skill, then I guess it's all skill. But it becomes kind of a circular argument, in a way. When I had a drysuit with the exhaust valve on the front of the suit, the only way I could vent it was bolt upright and leaning a little backward. Was my skill deficient because I couldn't control my buoyancy as well in that suit as in one with the vent in a better place, or was my knowledge deficient because I bought a suit with the dump valve in the wrong place (or, as was the case, was the drysuit manufacturer's knowledge deficient for putting the dump valve in a completely stupid position on a custom suit
)?
You all need pony bottles....
R wrote
BUT, I must say I believe this is really a minor diversion from the larger issue raised by TC -- gear doesn't make the diver, the diver makes the gear.
The core skills to be a "good diver" are those listed by TC in the opening post and they are, absolutely, gear irrelevant for the most part.
So if it "ain't the gear but the training" how should the industry do a better job of the latter? (Ducking my head and running for cover.)
Perhaps -- but may also be that they HAD the "skill" to dive "nicely" (i.e. but with reasonable trim) but that their prior gear did not permit them to do so because even with the "skill" to know how gear should be balanced, it couldn't be balanced.
BUT, I must say I believe this is really a minor diversion from the larger issue raised by TC -- gear doesn't make the diver, the diver makes the gear.
The core skills to be a "good diver" are those listed by TC in the opening post and they are, absolutely, gear irrelevant for the most part.
So if it "ain't the gear but the training" how should the industry do a better job of the latter? (Ducking my head and running for cover.)
Just speaking for myself, I can safely say that I can dive (and look good doing it) in things that even *I* won't use anymore.... The basic message being that equipment cannot improve your skills..... I know as a DIR diver you'll want to disagree with that but it's really true.
Some gear is poorly made enough that it will affect anyone's diving. Give me any gear that fits poorly, and I'll look worse for it. Give me crappy @$$ fins, and my feet will cramp, and I won't be able to kick well. Give me split fins, and I will go fast forward, but it will take much more effort to back kick. Give me a BC without a place to put trim weights, and my feet will tend to sink.
I started out with gear that didn't work well, and didn't scale to my diving. The shops I bought it from were more than happy to sell it to me. Draw whatever conclusions from that you want.
Tom
Relying upon a piece of equipment to do something you cannot. Some quick examples;
1. SCUBA divers who cannot swim a lick (though they may think they can) who then rely upon a inflatable air bag subconsciously to act as a life preserver.
2. SCUBA divers who are trained to rely upon a computer who cannot work the tables.
3. Buddy diver dependency, weak diver and strong diver combos, counting on the one to save the other.
4. Buddy diver dependency, weak diver with weak diver hoping to do together what neither can do alone.
5. Mask dependency, not being able to complete a dive (open water) to a successful conclusion if a mask is lost or broken.
N
I see what you're driving at, I just don't agree with the distinction you make. Weighting and trim issues are problems with the way your gear is set up. You need to modify your setup to fix the problem...there's no getting around that. Some gear gives you more tools to play around with to fix the problem. The more tools you have, the easier time you will have.
You do need the knowledge to know how to fix whatever trim issues you are having, and a good diver can definitely deal with a greater imbalance than a poor diver. I think everyone here agrees on this point.
I don't understand why you single out BP/W setups as being different. These need to be trimmed out just like any other gear setup. I can be head heavy or feet heavy in a BP/W just as easily as in a BC.
I have an old BC without trim pockets. I trim this out with a couple ankle weights around the tank neck. I'm curious of your opinion: Does this make me "gear dependent" on the ankle weights?
Tom
Eric Sedletzky
Contributor
I'm sure you guys are sick of me by now but I have to put in my two cents, I can't help it.
The thing about DIR / GUE not being appropriate for all types of diving I think is very true.
I used to be all DIR'd out when I was getting into Tech. Part of the thing with DIR is that they dive the same configuration all the time so it becomes automatic and any problems can be solved just about in their sleep. This is a great philosophy but unfortunately their configuration sucks where I dive. For Florida caves and deep wrecks yeah, but rough entries and exits combined with pounding surf, currents and kelp that likes to wrap around everything it's not so good. So DIR, unlike what they will tell you, is not the answer for everything. It's also not the answer for a couple or family that just want's to get wet in the caribean and have fun. Regular BC's and split fins work great for this and that is the perfect market for that stuff.
And as far as skills in those tropical destinations, so what if the gear does some of the work for them. It's not like they're hard core divers or anything. They just want to have fun. They don't go particularly deep and in most cases have a DM somewhere around them keeping an eye open. They probably only get 20 dives a year and are perfectly happy with how they dive. They don't know any different and don't care. They just want to see pretty fishes then get a tan on the beach. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and in some ways I envy them.
As far as someone getting a cert in one of those tropical locations then coming up to dive where I dive, then we have a problem. That's where gear dependancy and poor skills will get you in trouble.
I found the easiest way to deal with the elements and ease the feeling of being smothered by gear was to get rid of as much crap as possible.
I hate to broken record here, but one way to get your skills to the top is to strip your configuration to the bone and actually retrain yourself in reverse. Starting from scratch with only a backpack is about the best way I know how of getting your buoyancy skills pristine. Everything at that point depends on pure skill because there is no BC to "hold" you and the tank in a certain attitude. I don't care if you're using a BP/W and you think your diving has improved 400%, take off that wing and the naked truth will come out instantly.
When using just a pack it's automatic that you learn about weightiing, buoyancy, trim, body positioning, finning, streamlining, because it's all you. There is no "device" to help you. There would be no way to pull off a dive until these things are learned.
Once the skills are honed diving minimalist then one can start adding back the stuff they want, but the underlying skill level and knowledge will be firmly embedded in your memory and excellent diving skills will be automatic.
Minimalist diving is a great learning tool even if someone doesn't plan to dive minimalist later.
Sorry about the long winded post.
The thing about DIR / GUE not being appropriate for all types of diving I think is very true.
I used to be all DIR'd out when I was getting into Tech. Part of the thing with DIR is that they dive the same configuration all the time so it becomes automatic and any problems can be solved just about in their sleep. This is a great philosophy but unfortunately their configuration sucks where I dive. For Florida caves and deep wrecks yeah, but rough entries and exits combined with pounding surf, currents and kelp that likes to wrap around everything it's not so good. So DIR, unlike what they will tell you, is not the answer for everything. It's also not the answer for a couple or family that just want's to get wet in the caribean and have fun. Regular BC's and split fins work great for this and that is the perfect market for that stuff.
And as far as skills in those tropical destinations, so what if the gear does some of the work for them. It's not like they're hard core divers or anything. They just want to have fun. They don't go particularly deep and in most cases have a DM somewhere around them keeping an eye open. They probably only get 20 dives a year and are perfectly happy with how they dive. They don't know any different and don't care. They just want to see pretty fishes then get a tan on the beach. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and in some ways I envy them.
As far as someone getting a cert in one of those tropical locations then coming up to dive where I dive, then we have a problem. That's where gear dependancy and poor skills will get you in trouble.
I found the easiest way to deal with the elements and ease the feeling of being smothered by gear was to get rid of as much crap as possible.
I hate to broken record here, but one way to get your skills to the top is to strip your configuration to the bone and actually retrain yourself in reverse. Starting from scratch with only a backpack is about the best way I know how of getting your buoyancy skills pristine. Everything at that point depends on pure skill because there is no BC to "hold" you and the tank in a certain attitude. I don't care if you're using a BP/W and you think your diving has improved 400%, take off that wing and the naked truth will come out instantly.
When using just a pack it's automatic that you learn about weightiing, buoyancy, trim, body positioning, finning, streamlining, because it's all you. There is no "device" to help you. There would be no way to pull off a dive until these things are learned.
Once the skills are honed diving minimalist then one can start adding back the stuff they want, but the underlying skill level and knowledge will be firmly embedded in your memory and excellent diving skills will be automatic.
Minimalist diving is a great learning tool even if someone doesn't plan to dive minimalist later.
Sorry about the long winded post.
Similar threads
