Gas planning question

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You can choose anything that makes you happy. However you don't get to tell everybody else that their equipment choices are inappropriate just because they don't fit on your boat or on your dive site.

People dive what they feel is appropriate for their conditions.


It is neither my boat or dive site. Nor am I telling people what to do. I have an open-minded approach to dive equipment selection. I don't dive one system.

You clearly feel that SM is good for you, but you do not dive it because it as appropriate for the conditions; your responses have indicated this.
i.e oh if the dive op won't let me do this I'll find another dive op. You dive it because you want to, and there is little point trying to pretend otherwise.

Nobody is saying you cannot dive a system, or not allowing you on a boat


I advocate an approach based on the evaluation of a dive site, not just because SM is the 'in-thing' at the moment.


The OP has asked about gas planning when changing from a Y Valve to SM. I have explained that there is sacrifice in the system and a better approach for OW deco is the BM system as you have a larger resource of gas in the case of shutdown, without the need to feather.

Also the OP has asked the question as seemingly he has no experience of gas planning in SM. A good question would be why is he attempting such dives without the requisite training? I would stick with the system he knows and seek a SM instructor for such queries.
 
Also the OP has asked the question as seemingly he has no experience of gas planning in SM. A good question would be why is he attempting such dives without the requisite training? I would stick with the system he knows and seek a SM instructor for such queries.

The reason I asked is I have never heard of any explicit difference in gas planning for independent doubles versus manifold and rather than ask my one instructor(which I have) I thought I would ask the masses. I did not ask about how to dive thirds in sidemount. If my original post hinted at any of that, I apologize because I was typing the post on my phone in a hurry.


Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk
 
You clearly feel that SM is good for you, but you do not dive it because it as appropriate for the conditions; your responses have indicated this.
i.e oh if the dive op won't let me do this I'll find another dive op. You dive it because you want to, and there is little point trying to pretend otherwise.

You said SM was only appropriate in caves, which is clearly not the case.

It's appropriate anyplace people find that it fits their needs.

And I stand by my statement. If I want SM on a wreck, or a wall dive or whatever, what the boat likes is completely irrelevant. They can deal with it or I'll find another boat.
 
The reason I asked is I have never heard of any explicit difference in gas planning for independent doubles versus manifold and rather than ask my one instructor(which I have) I thought I would ask the masses. I did not ask about how to dive thirds in sidemount. If my original post hinted at any of that, I apologize because I was typing the post on my phone in a hurry.


Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

Dont worry about it, basic SM questions always turn into that argument.

Sent from my HTC One X
 
You said SM was only appropriate in caves, which is clearly not the case.


I have yet to see a compelling argument from you otherwise.

And I stand by my statement. If I want SM on a wreck, or a wall dive or whatever, what the boat likes is completely irrelevant. They can deal with it or I'll find another boat.

Once again. There are no dive ops in the UK that do not allow SM on their boats.

However out of respect for fellow divers I leave my twinset at home when diving off of small RIBs as it is unfair to expect other divers to haul my kit back in the RIB. It seems you would prefer to make other people uncomfortable insisting that you should have two tanks in that RIB.
Evaluate the dive. That includes transport.
 
Oh well, the original topic has been lost already, so... Reasons for sm:

Sidemount diving is perfect for sumps and for solo diving and also for people who do not want an immobilized back. Sidemount diving is The Choice for underwater acrobatics: sommersaults, circles on one side, cork screws, swimming upside down... This freedom and joy is a good reason. One has to be a proficient diver though, before making spirals upside down :D

Side mount diving also helps people who cannot carry heavy loads. It is at its best with seven litre steels (drysuit) and nicely doable with twelves. Stages complicate things and require carefull kit planning and skills.

Sidemount diving is also wonderfull in extreme cold where freeflows are boringly common - especially when entering the water. Its nice to operate the tank valves in a relaxed easy way untill the second stage warms up in the water and the ice crystals melt away.

Pulling someones double 18 litre steels up and into the rib can be a living hell. Would be nicer to get those tanks one at a time. I have a buddy with double 18 and a weak back and God, I hate those tanks.
 
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I have yet to see a compelling argument from you otherwise.

That's fine. I don't have any need to convince you.

However out of respect for fellow divers I leave my twinset at home when diving off of small RIBs as it is unfair to expect other divers to haul my kit back in the RIB. It seems you would prefer to make other people uncomfortable insisting that you should have two tanks in that RIB.
Evaluate the dive. That includes transport.

I don't consider handing up a couple of individual cylinders to the boat crew to be a huge imposition. And I don't dive from small RIBs.

YMMV.
 
That's fine. I don't have any need to convince you.

Subcooled has given an excellent reasoning above. Personally, I still don't agree with him :D. But he took the time to explain his rationale as I have with mine, and I thank him for taking the time.



I don't consider handing up a couple of individual cylinders to the boat crew to be a huge imposition.

It's having those two cylinders on a small RIB that IS the imposition.

And I don't dive from small RIBs.

*sigh* :shakehead:
 
The logic and motivation for open water sidemount is with the overseas traveling tech wreck diver requiring a doubles/twinset configuration, but the supporting dive-operation only having single AL 11L cylinders for hire (i.e no dedicated manifolded conventional twinsets for rent); all you need is a sidemount harness/wing system, sling kits, and if needed -complementary single left & right DIN tank valves at most (instead of lugging around a set of modular tank valves, crossover isolator valve and cylinder bands to configure & kit up a conventional backmounted twinset) . . .

Here is my Gas Planning Example, consistent for BOTH conventional backmount doubles AND Z-System sidemount doubles diving that I do:
Modified Thirds,Turn-Around Pressure and Lost Buddy Search Gas Availability Calculations are much easier in metric with a bar SPG. . .

Suppose you originally planned a wreck penetration starting with 200 bar at the entrance, with an openwater Rock Bottom of 50 bar. 200 minus 50 bar equals 150 bar usable for the penetration --Modified Thirds of this value is 50 bar (one-third of 150 equals 50), so you would turn-around for egress when you consume 50 bar of gas with an actual SPG reading of 150 bar. If you needed to do a gas-sharing emergency egress with your buddy at this point, you would both need 100 bar to get out of the wreck, with 50 bar Rock Bottom remaining to get both of you to the surface (or your Oxygen deco bottle stop of 6m).

Lets say you used up 30 bar already getting to the entrance of the wreck for a total of 170 bar pressure available --can you quickly recalculate Modified-Thirds?

No problem with bar pressure metrics: 170 bar minus 50 bar Rock Bottom yields 120 bar usable for the penentration; One-Third of 120 bar is 40 bar which is your new Modified Thirds turn pressure value. Therefore you would turn the dive when you consume 40 bar for an actual turn pressure SPG reading of 130 bar (170 bar minus 40 bar equals the actual turn pressure SPG reading of 130 bar).

What if you lose your buddy at this instance, at the farthest distance inside the overhead your Modified Thirds value allows? How do you calculate the amount of gas to do a Lost Buddy Search?

Easy! At your turn around pressure reading of 130 bar on the SPG, simply add your Rock Bottom value to your Modified Thirds value (50 bar Rock Bottom plus 40 bar Modified Thirds equals 90 bar); Put a line-arrow pointing the way out on your mainline that you've laid, and take reference note of where you are inside the overhead at that exact point as well. Now go and search for your buddy with the understanding that you must be back at this line-arrow marker by the time your SPG reads this actual value (90 bar). So you would have from 130 bar down to 90 bar reading on your SPG, or 40 bar delta of gas to search for your buddy --if you were to do a straight line search down a long corridor inside the wreck for example, tactically you should use 20 bar out and 20 bar back to your line-arrow marker for a delta of 40 bar, and an actual end of search SPG reading of 90 bar-- you must start your egress whether you found your buddy or not when you use up this 40 bar delta of gas, at the line arrow marker, with the actual 90 bar final reading on your SPG.

At any point before your Modified Thirds turn pressure, for a lost buddy search, the final egress pressure is figured just by adding your Rock Bottom value to the amount of gas you've consumed on the penetration up to that point --for example you start with 170 bar on your SPG and you lose your buddy with 140 bar SPG reading for a delta consumption of 30 bar. 50 bar Rock Bottom plus delta consumption of 30 bar equals 80 bar. Drop a line arrow, and now you've got from 140 bar down to 80 bar (a tactical delta search pressure of 60 bar) to look for your buddy, and be back to your line arrow to egress smartly when your SPG reads 80 bar.

At any point after your Modified Thirds turn pressure, all you need to do to figure out a final egress pressure for a lost buddy search is to subtract your Modified Thirds value from your actual pressure reading, and place a line-arrow pointing out at this point on your mainline. For example, if you're egressing and you lose your buddy with 120 bar actual reading on your SPG: Subtract the Modified Thirds value of 40 bar from 120 bar -which equals 80 bar- and it is this actual reading that you must have on your SPG when you get back to your line arrow to successfully exit the wreck with all your Rock Bottom still available to reach the surface. Another way of looking at this, at your nominal turn-around point & afterward on egress, the amount of gas tactically available for a lost buddy search is always just your Modified Thirds value --in this case 40 bar.

Remember that on a lost buddy search, you will deliberately encroach and use up the Modified Thirds Reserve Value needed for an emergency gas-sharing egress contingency (and possibly use up some amount of Rock Bottom as well) --in other words, if you do find your lost buddy and worst of all worst case scenarios he happens to be out-of-gas in a silt-out . . .well dea ex machina. I hope you're in a 3-person Team, somehow make it out and run into other divers on the outside who can donate gas & assist. . .

[Note: the above gas plan is taken from wreck penetration dives on the Yukon (San Diego); USS New York (Subic Bay Philippines); HMAS Perth/USS Houston (Sunda Strait Indonesia); and various wrecks in Truk Lagoon. Depth 30m using twin 11L/bar tanks (double AL80's) and Oxygen deco.]
 

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