Fundies kicked my a$$

[Rainer]

Mossman, so that readers here don't get too confused, which GUE classes specifically did you take? Thanks.

 

[elmer fudd]

I think the thing that annoys people about DIR is the evangelical fervor of some of it's adherents.

Other than that I think you'd find a great respect for DIR among serious divers. Just look at the number of divers that have adopted DIR style rigs. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[Belce]

Congrats Crush, I am taking that fundie course myself this Summer.

I am very much a supporter of the idea of a diverse education, even on a single topic.

 

[Leejnd]

DIR is a holistic dive philosophy that claims that its practitioners are safer than non-DIR divers. Diving DIR is a dedicated venture and very few divers meet the specifications. Divers that approach DIR standards but don't follow through are merely applying Hogarthian tech configurations, usually where they aren't warranted. There's really very little application for DIR in recreational diving which is why I mock the concept. Tech diving is a different story. I do believe the DIR system is probably the safest for cave exploration, perhaps wrecks as well with certain caveats. For most open-water diving, however, DIR is major overkill.

Well, see, here again we have someone who hasn't taken the training, telling those of us who HAVE taken the training, something that doesn't jibe with what we learned in the training. I'm really having a difficult time understanding why you feel it necessary to "mock" something you haven't actually experienced yourself. And I say this with all due respect, Mossman, because I think you know I respect your opinion. We've had some excellent exchanges about our similar travel interests and styles, and given each other great advice. I really appreciated your input in helping me decide where I wanted to stay in Cozumel. But seriously, your vehemence in belittling and mocking DIR diving is completely befuddling to me.

Nobody ever told me that DIR divers are "safer" than non-DIR divers in recreational diving (although it was made clear that it is considered the safest practice for cave diving, which you seem to agree with). Maybe somebody has said that to you, but not to me. You say that it's a "philosophy that claims that its practitioners are safer..." But, a "philosophy" can't talk. So who's saying it? Obviously divers who choose to dive in this style feel it's the best choice for THEM - of COURSE they do! Why else would they have chosen it? Divers who choose other dive philosophies clearly feel that theirs is the best style. But is there some reason that you need to "mock" those who choose a style different from yours? If DIR divers are so self-righteous and superior, why do I see DIR divers diving non-DIR dives with non-DIR divers all the time-- and getting along quite well?

And truth be told, I do believe there are certain elements to DIR diving that DO make me a safer diver. Practicing drills will make me better able to deal with an underwater emergency. Min gas vs safety stops seems to me to be a better way to off-gas, leading to lowered risk of getting bent. Propulsion techniques that don't silt up the bottom can lead to better visibility in silty areas. Consistent pre-dive checks mean I'm less likely to forget something important, or find something malfunctioning at depth. Clear, consistent underwater signaling means I can better communicate with my teammates. Can all these elements of increased safety be found in other ways, other dive "philosophies"? Maybe. Probably. But I got them from my GUE class. Why does that deserve to be mocked?

As for applying Hogarthian tech configurations where they aren't warranted - what's not warranted? When you are at my level (recreational) the aspects of it all work quite well together. What's wrong with using it? Does it cause problems? Is it too complex for recreational diving? If so, I'm not seeing that. The can light is probably the most "tech-diver-ish" aspect of it - but I just bought one for myself because I like the idea of it being attached to my hand, so I don't have to hold it...so I have both my hands free. And they sure are excellent lights! So what's the harm in using them for recreational diving?

While I know there is an old history of contention and confrontation between DIR and non-DIR divers, that seems to be almost gone...the ONLY negativity in that regard that I see these days is from non-DIR-trained divers who seem to be hellbent on keeping up the conflict. And I just don't get it. DIR divers don't seem to be doing that anymore, and haven't for a while. From what I can see, they like their style of diving, and some ONLY dive that way, while others mix it up...there's no rule or law or DIR police. And everybody seems to be getting along just fine...except for you.

Why keep this going? Why "mock" a choice some people are making in how they like to dive? It's really hard for me to comprehend your mindset.

 

[rjack321]

Well, see, here again we have someone who hasn't taken the training, telling those of us who HAVE taken the training, something that doesn't jibe with what we learned in the training. I'm really having a difficult time understanding why you feel it necessary to "mock" something you haven't actually experienced yourself.

Stop feeding the trolls ok?

 

[Hepcat62]

But it's never DIR diving unless it's really DIR. DIR is a holistic system involving an entire team approach, unified gear, etc. Please don't confuse "diving in a manner of DIR divers" to be at all DIR. It's not. All or nothing.

Pretending that wasn't a blatant troll for the moment...

How was anything TS&M said contrary to even your definition of DIR? If my team and I go out and plan to do a single tank dive, we are all on the same page - great, DIR. If we dive dissimilar tanks (including mixed singles/doubles), but apply our gas management protocols to match reserves and base our plan around the diver with the least gas, great - DIR. In all cases, we are diving a regulator configuration that standardizes the process of donation and sharing - regardless of singles or doubles - great, DIR.

Maybe I'm missing something, but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Leejnd]

Stop feeding the trolls ok?

That's not what I'm doing. I happen to have had many interactions with Mossman, and we have a lot in common. I've never met him, but we've shared thoughts on things, I've given him advice, he's given me advice, and I respect him. He is not a troll - he is an active participant on this board. He has an opinion, which he clearly feels strongly about. Just because it differs from yours, or even from the majority (which it seems to in this case), doesn't make him a troll.

I'm trying to understand his opinion, and posting my differing viewpoint. If you're not interested in the conversation, feel free to skip. But I, for one, AM interested.

 

[TSandM]

There's really very little application for DIR in recreational diving which is why I mock the concept.

I'm just shaking my head. As I have said before, the absolute majority of my dives are purely recreational -- 32% Nitrox, no deeper than 100 feet. Yet the system works very well for me . . . and for my buddies, which is probably even more important. In fact, I'm headed for Southern California at the end of this month, where 20+ of us will board a SoCal liveaboard and do three days of diving on sites most of us have never seen, in conditions most of us don't usually dive. We'll sort and resort teams, depending on who feels like diving and who feels like hanging out in the sun. The best thing about the trip is that you can close your eyes and reach out at random and grab somebody, and jump in the water with them, and know the dive will be seamless.

Saying that there is very little application for the system in recreational diving shows how little understanding you have of what DIR diving is, and what it offers. I honestly think it has MORE to offer the recreational diver than the technical diver, in many ways, because most technical divers are exposed to the skills and the planning tools we use. Dive planning, good pre-dive checks, and a dive executed as a team, utilizing strong diving skills, is a recipe for a VERY good recreational dive!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But it's never DIR diving unless it's really DIR. DIR is a holistic system involving an entire team approach, unified gear, etc. Please don't confuse "diving in a manner of DIR divers" to be at all DIR. It's not. All or nothing.

Actually ... in the real world ... the majority of folks who take Fundamentals are not the least bit concerned about "being DIR" ... they are only interested learning skills that will help them become better overall divers ... which that particular class is very good at doing.

Fundies doesn't make one "be DIR" ... it simply prepares you with a solid foundation to move in that direction if you should so choose. The majority of people who take the class go on to decide that higher-level GUE classes aren't a good fit for their goals. In that case, the skills they learned are still useful for wherever their goals take them.

You do have the single-mindedness of a fundamentalist ... as well as the characteristic determination to not let reality interfere with your preconceived notions on the subject. The more you post, the more obvious it becomes that you are pushing an agenda that borders on that cultish attitude you accuse of others.

Perhaps if you spent a bit of energy actually learning about the class, you wouldn't feel so threatened by it ... or you can continue making yourself look ignorant ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

I think the thing that annoys people about DIR is the evangelical fervor of some of it's adherents.

My DIR/GUE instructor was incredibly un-evangelical. He had his personal convictions but did not try to convert us.

Other than that I think you'd find a great respect for DIR among serious divers. Just look at the number of divers that have adopted DIR style rigs. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

DIR copied the "Hogarthian" setup from William Hogarth Main (who was not, I believe, part of what became DIR).