Frustration moving into/towards tech

[grantctobin]

I've never taken a flying lesson, but I know that if I see a student pilot land in a tree, something wasn't done right in the training... similarly, I don't need to take a GUE fundamental's course to realize it's jacked up from the perspective of how a proper training course is done. Knowing how to develop good curriculum (for anything) is more than enough.

Sorry your ego as a DIR diver refuses to let you see that, but that the cluster**** that is GUE fundamentals manages to help output some good divers =/= it's a good course or properly developed training curriculum. It's still crap, even if you worship it and refuse to see any flaws in it as a result.

I can't imagine where GUE adherents get their reputation for being elitist ****oles... oh wait, it's people like you, that's right. Have a good day, I'll still not be taking classes with GUE, but I'm glad you came into the thread to rehash crap that's been discussed at length just to make sure to show us how great GUE divers are at being dicks.

Sincerely,

Starting to really hate GUE'holes.

(though thankfully not everyone who takes a GUE class turns into one)

Hey maybe take a class and find out, seems like you’d be well suited for a drysuit primer or a doubles primer. Maybe Rec 1?

Best,
Grant

 

[jlcnuke]

For someone who claims to be so intelligent when it comes to creating training programs, your analogy is stupid. As a pilot, I have witnessed accidents in training. It can be the instructors fault or not at all. Accidents can happen that are caused by things an instructor can’t correct quickly enough. Look for a better analogy.
Either way based on what I’ve read in this thread you seem to think of yourself as an expert and are judging gue courses based on your own professional bias without any direct experience to do so.
People should take a gue course then make a judgment. There’s tons of misinformation out there. Btw I’m not one of those gue elitist a-holes, but believe as a whole gue time and time again puts out better divers on a regular basis than most other agencies regardless of how horrible you think their curriculum is.

Well, if you pay close attention, I didn't say "the training program was wrong" if a pilot ended up in a tree, I said "Something wasn't done right", which I think you'd agree that at some point, someone screwed up if a plane ended up in a tree (you're not aware of anyone intentionally landing a plane in a tree are you?). I'd hope most people could see the difference, but maybe I'll consider looking for a different analogy if I ever decide to waste my time on one of these threads in the future.

I am, objectively, an expert in designing training programs and training material (that's why I get paid quite well to do such things in fact). GUE instructors are, objectively, experts at diving. If one of them told me I was doing something wrong while diving, I'd be happy to get their feedback and possibly even follow that feedback to improve my diving. As far as I can tell, no one at GUE, who is a GUE diver, or who is in any way associated with GUE at all, is currently willing to accept feedback about their "stuff" from anyone (myself or others that have made the same observations, in this thread, in other locations (though I've heard at least one other poster here mention bringing up similar criticisms .. not surprisingly also someone with professional experience in developing training) etc.

In fact, I've seen exactly zero GUE divers admit that anything associated with GUE is anything but perfect and every single bit of criticism aimed at GUE is immediately attacked with "well, just go do the training" or worse (I suppose expecting that forking over a bunch of money and doing the course will somehow prove someone wrong). Protip, if I took GUE fundamentals and increased my diving skills by 10000% percent next month, exactly NONE of my criticisms of their program would change. You can make absolutely terrible training programs that people improve greatly during. It's still a **** training program, it's just effective at some things in spite of how badly designed it is.

I've developed hundreds of training programs, materials, etc over the years and I'd call exactly zero of them perfect and happily accept feedback on my programs from people with tons of experience in the field and from students with zero experience in the field. Because that's how you get better. I haven't seen anything from the GUE community about wanting to improve, simply insults (veiled or sometimes open) or suggestions to "do their training" anyway and insinuations that I don't know what I'm talking about (from people who likely, though I'm not positive, developed a quality training program in their lives or know what the characteristics of one look like). That's the kind of condescension and ego that I simply have no desire to be associated with in the slightest.

Quite frankly, after seeing the path this thread (and others I've looked at) have gone down, I'm exceptionally glad that GUE doesn't have a monopoly on good divers to learn from so I have some great alternatives. No one here has convinced me to take a GUE course of any kind, but many have done a great job convincing me not to, so I guess I got something out of the thread's derailment (an understanding of where everyone get's their stereotypes about GUE divers from).

 

[jlcnuke]

Hey maybe take a class and find out, seems like you’d be well suited for a drysuit primer or a doubles primer. Maybe Rec 1?

Best,
Grant

That sounds like a great idea, know someone other than GUE that has that course I could maybe look into? Well, after I do my ITT course if I don't like the progress I get from that one down in Florida anyway.

 

[chillyinCanada]

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[Colliam7]

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[KenGordon]

Well, if you pay close attention, I didn't say "the training program was wrong" if a pilot ended up in a tree, I said "Something wasn't done right", which I think you'd agree that at some point, someone screwed up if a plane ended up in a tree (you're not aware of anyone intentionally landing a plane in a tree are you?). I'd hope most people could see the difference, but maybe I'll consider looking for a different analogy if I ever decide to waste my time on one of these threads in the future.

I am, objectively, an expert in designing training programs and training material (that's why I get paid quite well to do such things in fact). GUE instructors are, objectively, experts at diving. If one of them told me I was doing something wrong while diving, I'd be happy to get their feedback and possibly even follow that feedback to improve my diving. As far as I can tell, no one at GUE, who is a GUE diver, or who is in any way associated with GUE at all, is currently willing to accept feedback about their "stuff" from anyone (myself or others that have made the same observations, in this thread, in other locations (though I've heard at least one other poster here mention bringing up similar criticisms .. not surprisingly also someone with professional experience in developing training) etc.

In fact, I've seen exactly zero GUE divers admit that anything associated with GUE is anything but perfect and every single bit of criticism aimed at GUE is immediately attacked with "well, just go do the training" or worse (I suppose expecting that forking over a bunch of money and doing the course will somehow prove someone wrong). Protip, if I took GUE fundamentals and increased my diving skills by 10000% percent next month, exactly NONE of my criticisms of their program would change. You can make absolutely terrible training programs that people improve greatly during. It's still a **** training program, it's just effective at some things in spite of how badly designed it is.

I've developed hundreds of training programs, materials, etc over the years and I'd call exactly zero of them perfect and happily accept feedback on my programs from people with tons of experience in the field and from students with zero experience in the field. Because that's how you get better. I haven't seen anything from the GUE community about wanting to improve, simply insults (veiled or sometimes open) or suggestions to "do their training" anyway and insinuations that I don't know what I'm talking about (from people who likely, though I'm not positive, developed a quality training program in their lives or know what the characteristics of one look like). That's the kind of condescension and ego that I simply have no desire to be associated with in the slightest.

Quite frankly, after seeing the path this thread (and others I've looked at) have gone down, I'm exceptionally glad that GUE doesn't have a monopoly on good divers to learn from so I have some great alternatives. No one here has convinced me to take a GUE course of any kind, but many have done a great job convincing me not to, so I guess I got something out of the thread's derailment (an understanding of where everyone get's their stereotypes about GUE divers from).

I have not done any GUE course, but I have dived with GUE divers and had the odd interaction with GUE instructors locally.

My impression is that they are much more reasonable than you would think from the postings made here. SBers are awful at being such fanboys that they discredit the thing they promote.

I have a 100m CCR ticket, but I would do a GUE Fundamentals course just for fun if I had the time and one was running locally enough. I am sure I would learn something and improve my diving.

I have to say though that the most important thing for me in training is confidence in the instructor. I have done a load of training, for example how to ride a motor cycle, where I concluded the instructor was a complete tosser and did could not trust them.

In your situation you really should do TDI ITT with someone whose reputation you like or just as a try out. If they are rubbish you have only lost a couple of days. If you like them then continue to ANDP with them.

 

[jlcnuke]

I have not done any GUE course, but I have dived with GUE divers and had the odd interaction with GUE instructors locally.

My impression is that they are much more reasonable than you would think from the postings made here. SBers are awful at being such fanboys that they discredit the thing they promote.

I have a 100m CCR ticket, but I would do a GUE Fundamentals course just for fun if I had the time and one was running locally enough. I am sure I would learn something and improve my diving.

I have to say though that the most important thing for me in training is confidence in the instructor. I have done a load of training, for example how to ride a motor cycle, where I concluded the instructor was a complete tosser and did could not trust them.

In your situation you really should do TDI ITT with someone whose reputation you like or just as a try out. If they are rubbish you have only lost a couple of days. If you like them then continue to ANDP with them.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestion. My buddy did some classes with Blue Grotto's resident instructor Kevin Tate and liked him, so we've booked ITT with him. If I'm happy with the course, then we'll continue on with AN/DP with him. If not, I'll find someone else to do it with. My buddy is more constrained by funds right now than I am which, unfortunately rules out some of the instructors I'd like to work with (based on their reputations etc), but I'm not so free with money that I'm going to pay for his training either. It may come down to him getting training separate from me depending on how things go (wouldn't be the first time). Or I may do the training with him and still do some workshops with others outside of a specific class to work on my skills above and beyond what I get from classes (done that before too). Not really sure at this point what path I'll end up taking when all is said and done.

 

[flymolo]

I've never taken a flying lesson, but I know that if I see a student pilot land in a tree, something wasn't done right in the training... similarly, I don't need to take a GUE fundamental's course to realize it's jacked up from the perspective of how a proper training course is done. Knowing how to develop good curriculum (for anything) is more than enough.

Sorry your ego as a DIR diver refuses to let you see that, but that the cluster**** that is GUE fundamentals manages to help output some good divers =/= it's a good course or properly developed training curriculum. It's still crap, even if you worship it and refuse to see any flaws in it as a result.

I can't imagine where GUE adherents get their reputation for being elitist ****oles... oh wait, it's people like you, that's right. Have a good day, I'll still not be taking classes with GUE, but I'm glad you came into the thread to rehash crap that's been discussed at length just to make sure to show us how great GUE divers are at being dicks.

Sincerely,

Starting to really hate GUE'holes.

(though thankfully not everyone who takes a GUE class turns into one)

At the expense of beating a dead horse- I'm not sure who has the bigger attitude problem here, but I think its you. You should really try to keep an open mind when approaching something you have no experience in.

 

[jlcnuke]

At the expense of beating a dead horse- I'm not sure who has the bigger attitude problem here, but I think its you. You should really try to keep an open mind when approaching something you have no experience in.

I have experience in training courses. I'm not commenting on the quality of training given by instructors for GUE, I'm commenting on the structure of the training (how the training program is designed). I can see that with their self-published, publicly available materials without ever having to take a course. There is absolutely no need for me to ever take a course to see that, based on the course design, it isn't one I'm interested in giving my money to.

Why that upsets so many people that almost certainly had no part in designing the course is really mind-boggling.

 

[flymolo]

I have experience in training courses. I'm not commenting on the quality of training given by instructors for GUE, I'm commenting on the structure of the training (how the training program is designed). I can see that with their self-published, publicly available materials without ever having to take a course. There is absolutely no need for me to ever take a course to see that, based on the course design, it isn't one I'm interested in giving my money to.

Why that upsets so many people that almost certainly had no part in designing the course is really mind-boggling.

I think it has something to do with the nature of your pre-conceived notions about a course you've never taken.