Frog Kick VS Modified Flutter

[Gandalf-the-Diver]

I have been diving for just over a yr now, and I find I am having a hell of a time, performing a Frog Kick. I have been guilty of leaving the silt trail behind me as I flutter kick along.
I have gone diving with some local GUE divers, one of whom, his feet seem to be the only thing moving in his Frog Kick, and he flies. I have been finding that for me, if I do a Modified Flutter, I can avoid the silt trail, and keep up. I am using a pr of Hollis Yellow Tip Bat fins, drysuit diving.
I am hoping to progress my diving to include wreck penetration. Any thoughts on Frog vs Mod Flutter in that environment would be appreciated. I am not bad at helicopter turns.

 

[rick00001967]

many people have trouble doing a frog kick in the beggining. i know i sure did. and if you have bad knees (like my wife) you may want to use a different technique.

having proper weighting and especially proper trim / body position are key. check out the better youtube videos and try to visualize doing what they do. you can lay onthe floor or a table and practice as well. then try to put it all together in the pool or in shallow water.

for now, work on weight, trim, and using as little energy as possible to move yourself along in the most efficient manor. this will also help improve gas consumption.

do not try to move into over head environments until you are confident in all the above.

maybe try to have some fun while you are doin it too.

 

[Gone for diving]

Just Keep practicing, you'll get it,

I use jet fins, I can see it being harder with long fins,

 

[happy-diver]

If you keep your knees at 90 degrees and don't try chasing speedsters try from there

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Mate pull yourself along a bit in a wreck and leave your 90° legs to flutter behind you

 

[rongoodman]

The modified flutter sounds like it's working for you in the short term, as far as providing non-silting propulsion. You'll need the frog kick, though, as it's the foundation for the back kick and helicopter turns. (It's hard to imagine how you're currently doing helicopter turns without it.) The frog kick is also more efficient, since you have a glide phase after every kick. It's worth spending time on.

 

[loosenit2]

Both the modified flutter and frog kick have places in your tool kit. The modified flutter is a power kick, it generates a lot of propulsion but also requires a lot of expended energy. The frog kick is more like the cruise control of diving, it offers a good amount of propulsion with minimal energy output.

 

[rddvet]

I know somebody will get pissy from this response, oh well. If you’re diving with gue divers and are impressed by what you see, then take fundies. I was someone who was taught by mentors and self-taught all of the kicks. I was good enough to pass multiple cave classes without issue including classes like cave dpv and ccr. I also have 12 years of cave diving experience and 25 years of general diving. I took fundies this year and learned ways to improve my kicks.
ANYONE will benefit from fundies. You don’t need to take any gue class beyond that if you don’t want. But if you want to look like the dude you described, take fundies. It’s some of the best money I’ve ever spent.

 

[inquis]

I have been guilty of leaving the silt trail behind me as I flutter kick along

I think what you may be doing is a scissor kick that stirs up the bottom. (Yes, it's often called a flutter kick in non-diving circles.) A flutter kick (in diving, as I understand it) has knees bent around 90 degrees (thighs horizontal, assuming horizontal trim) and moves the shins +- 20ish degrees from there. The modified flutter keeps the knees at 90 and works the ankles.

I prefer the modified frog, but still with a glide. (It's mostly ankles, a quick flick really). If you want to learn the frog, I suggest you get a feel for modified first. The (non-modified) frog power stroke starts similarly, but also straightens the knees a fair bit, about 60 degrees. (That's the additional power.)

I switch to flutter to avoid hitting the wall on one (or both) sides during the outward rotation just prior to the push.

Edit: a cursory scan through YouTube indicates terminology is all over the map. I like using "modified" for the "smaller" version and the visual image of "scissor". (I was taught the scissor in my OW class with straight legs.) I also see that a poor flutter kick with thighs pointed somewhat downward will also stir up the bottom.

 

[boulderjohn]

think what you may be doing is a scissor kick that stirs up the bottom. (Yes, it's often called a flutter kick in non-diving circles.) A flutter kick (in diving, as I understand it) has knees bent around 90 degrees (thighs horizontal, assuming horizontal trim) and moves the shins +- 20ish degrees from there. The modified flutter keeps the knees at 90 and works the ankles.

We had a thread in which these definitions were debated not too long ago. The debate started when someone said, emphatically, that what people were calling a flutter kick was actually a scissor kick. In an attempt to participate meaningfully, I searched the Internet and could not find a single source of any kind--authoritative or non-authoritative--that said that. Other people apparently did the same thing.

What I gathered from this is that someone somewhere started telling students that would the rest of the world calls a flutter kick is actually a scissors kick, even though you will see something entirely different if you look up scissors kick. The people who have heard this repeat it, others hear it and repeat it, and so it gets passed on.

So, yes, some people "in diving circles" use that terminology. Frankly, I have not met anyone like that in the diving circles I frequent.

 

[dmaziuk]

Where I grew up, "flutter kick" is crawl kick: front or back, "scissor kick" is sidestroke w/o fins, "frog kick" is breaststroke, and "dolphin kick" is butterfly. "Modified frog" is the bent-knees, feet-only (-mostly) version of the breaststroke kick, and I've no idea what a "modified flutter" could possibly be: bicycle kick?

Flutter kick w/o raising any more silt than a ray would raise (adjusted for size), is perfectly doable; you just need a) open water, b) trim, c) ankle stretch, and d) proper technique. As in: "bicycle kick done wrong" ain't gonna cut it.