Frog kick efficiency

[BlueTrin]

Hi,

So I would suggest a few things.

First of all, look at the free online course at sidemounting.com (also on YouTube for free too) that has the finning techniques - so you can see what you are aiming for.

Then I would (as others have said) try to video yourself making the kicks. I would do these initially on land lying on a bench or even off the end of your bed. You can set your phone up to record and then play back after you've made a few kicks to see how they look. If you position the phone and leave it on selfie mode, you can see you moving live if you get the right position of the phone.

Then of course in the water is the real test to get to see yourself.

The comment about being in flat trim seems a bit strange - that's a good thing. Being negative is of course a bad thing, and the wobble you mention is a sign of a diver not feeling stable and the body makes you move to get some feelings you are used to.

The frog kick itself has three main phases,

• the load. this is where you draw the heels up towards the bum while keeping our knees reasonably close together

• the kick. this is where you now separate your fins, then at their widest, turn your ankles in and then lowering your feet to imagine clapping the soles of your feet together

• the glide. once the fins have met and been "clapped", then point the legs behind you and point your toes so the fin blade is as flat as can be (least water resistance). the glide is a rest and should last until you come to a stop. Don't be tempted to lift your legs back up too soon as it will just add drag and slow you down.

Hope that helps and do let me know if you get to watch the videos at all.

Cheers

Hey thanks so looking at the video, need to find some time to watch it properly again in a quiet place.

One thing I noticed is that he does try not bring the “sole” of the fins against each other.

I think some time ago, one instructor told me to try to picture clasping then together. Maybe I remember wrong?

Love the video though, the pace is slow enough and he provides videos to picture everything he says.

 

[ginti]

I think some time ago, one instructor told me to try to picture clasping then together. Maybe I remember wrong?

No, you don't remember wrong. But, the way I understand it, that is more of a psychological trick. When frog kicking, many people don't have a range of motion extended enough. By suggesting to "clap," people are forced to a full range of motion; for those whose problem is a limited range, this trick solves the issue. But once you get a good range, this approach is not necessary anymore. Why? If you look at most videos, you'll see that divers seldom clasp the sole, because the last part of the range is the less efficient in terms of propulsion, and if you don't do it, the efficiency of the kick does not change (to be specific, it increases, but let's skip this point).

The way you described the problem in the OP, this is really not your issue. Also, an instructor would immediately identify it, and, I guess a limited-range frog kick would be a no-go for a tech pass. Given where you are now and the feedback you got, I would not think about it if I were you right now; but if you want to be sure, take a video.

 

[BlueTrin]

No, you don't remember wrong. But, the way I understand it, that is more of a psychological trick. When frog kicking, many people don't have a range of motion extended enough. By suggesting to "clap," people are forced to a full range of motion; for those whose problem is a limited range, this trick solves the issue. But once you get a good range, this approach is not necessary anymore. Why? If you look at most videos, you'll see that divers seldom clasp the sole, because the last part of the range is the less efficient in terms of propulsion, and if you don't do it, the efficiency of the kick does not change (to be specific, it increases, but let's skip this point).

The way you described the problem in the OP, this is really not your issue. Also, an instructor would immediately identify it, and, I guess a limited-range frog kick would be a no-go for a tech pass. Given where you are now and the feedback you got, I would not think about it if I were you right now; but if you want to be sure, take a video.

That’s useful because I was wondering if I had to keep the fins clasped during the glide.

I really need to find someone willing to record me, actually this weekend this may happen if I can convince of my buddies to take a video …

 

[ginti]

That’s useful because I was wondering if I had to keep the fins clasped during the glide.

I really need to find someone willing to record me, actually this weekend this may happen if I can convince of my buddies to take a video …

One problem here is that "clasp" is not a strict definition. When, at the beginning of my previous post, I wrote "clap," I didn't forget any "s." That is a real suggestion for newbies or extreme cases. But what about less extreme cases or more experienced divers?

In reality, "clasp" means just "tight" or something similar, right? So saying "clasped" does not help in quantifying anything - it's just a qualitative evaluation, and what is clasped for someone could not be clasped for someone else. Given this uncertainty, yes, to be sure 100% about your range of motion, you should take a video - it is impossible to have a good range while keeping the fins very far from each other.

 

[Not a Floater]

There are a couple of other things to think about. First, what kind of fins are you using. Some fins are not compatible with a frog kick.

There are two ways of kicking the frog kick. One is with the top of the foot/fin, the other with the bottom of the foot/fin. Which have you been taught and/or are trying?

Third, the frog kick was designed for technical diving, and used inside wrecks and in caves to avoid kicking up silt. This, in my opinion, is an advanced scuba technique for technical diving. I rarely use a frog kick, unless I’m trying to practice it. But divers are now being taught the frog kick during basic scuba, as they are trying to get divers into advanced courses very quickly. The so-called flutter kick, and the dolphin kick, are much more efficient styles of kicking. But they will stir up a silty bottom if not very careful.

SeaRat

Actually the frog kick is much more efficient than flutter. Cave divers use the modified frog kick there or in tight spaces. Ideally you will never use the flutter kick again

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Actually the frog kick is much more efficient than flutter. Cave divers use the modified frog kick there or in tight spaces. Ideally you will never use the flutter kick again

This is actually wrong; the frog kick is very, very inefficient in diving propulsion. The only reason cave and wreck divers use it is to prevent the diver from kicking up potentially life threatening silt from the bottom. That would disorient the diver, and the diver may not find the exit in an overhead environment.

I have been diving for many decades, and the frog kick is not one I would use to try to get from where I landed on a parascuba jump on an Apollo capsule to swim to the capsule. I have dived Oregon rivers, and in high current the frog kick cannot compete with either the flutter kick or a dolphin kick for propulsion. This is why only the dolphin kick and the flutter kick is used in really fast finswimming competitions.

Here is the bifin competition:

And here is an underwater finswimming competition using the dolphin kick and monofins:

Take a look at the times, and see whether a frog kick could come anywhere close to these times.

SeaRat

 

[Angelo Farina]

I confirm entirely what John wrote.
Apart competitions based on speed, where the power exerted is dominant, see the kicking style employed by free divers.
They are not interested in speed, nor in maximum thrust (as they are very streamlined).
They need efficiency, covering the longer distance with minimum oxygen usage.
Still they favour the monofin with full-body dolphin action, or two long carbon-fiber fins when the monofin cannot be used.

 

[Nemrod]

The frog kick is efficient when used for it's best purpose which is to move slowly along and not stir up the bottom (or stay off the reef). As used in SCUBA, not competitive fin swimming, it is 60% glide. I hurt my left ankle long ago in a triathlon falling during the run transition and then some time back had some cute titanium pins installed in my left hip thanks to a cycling crash so I do not find a frog kick especially comfortable for any length of time. I can frog kick, I choose not to. Instead I do some sort of weird kick that starts off as like a side stroke scissor and ends with a frog like clap, whatever it is it works for me, does not stir up silt and moves me along.

 

[J-Vo]

DPV is the most efficient kick. This argument will never end.

 

[Twoblues]

Hi, during a class it was highlighted that I don’t have a very good frog kick efficiency.

Apparently I don’t extend my legs far enough and as a result I don’t push hard enough to glide.

The instructor mentioned that it is probably a combination of these factors:

• I seem to be slightly negative and compensate with my lungs
• It was mentioned I am maybe too flat trim and should have my legs a bit lower actually, apparently I have sometimes too much air accumulating in my drysuit legs

My buddy mentioned that he only needs about 1 frog kick to do the same distance than 2 of mine.

Also I noticed that when I finish my kick, I don’t feel very stable, like if I was rolling a bit. It’s possible that this may be due to having a bit too much air in my legs: the diving here is around 4-5m depth average, I find it weirdly challenging to dump gas from my drysuit so close to the surface and hold legs extended long enough to dump at a shallow depth. Maybe I need to practice this more.

It has been hard to correct these because I have been having these bad habits for too long. Also I have been doing quite a bit of other adjustments recently so it’s all compounding.

I was wondering if anyone here had ideas or drills to speed up the learning process and get an efficient frog kick.

When using my split fins thrust is much less compared to my standard fins in any mode, but standard fins are more taxing on my legs . All is a trade off