Frog kick efficiency

[BlueTrin]

He said something similar to @ginti , also apparently I didn’t extend fully the leg.

I tried to improve this over the second week.

I think I found it hard to actually do dives so shallow in an environment with restrictions so maybe I accumulated a bit too much air in my drysuit.

I think I got better over the second week, but I’ll try to get someone to film me when possible.

 

[ginti]

Meh, if there is too much air in the suit it's going into the legs eitherway.

I agree, indeed I think that even if that factor can play a role, it is usually definitely less important than the others.

The instability is usually caused by too much gas in the suit and/or to much weight on the diver.

It can, but it can also be due to other factors (for instance, the unbalanced position of the weights). Also, he mentioned that he is slightly negative, so this factor can be a trigger of his "instability" feelings that make him kick so fast. Just thinking loud here

When you only put enough gas into the suit so the undergarment can expand (which is how you're supposed to do it), there is no air moving about in the suit to begin with.

At depth, yes. But if you go deep and return to shallower depths, the gas you had at depth will expand. @BlueTrin mentioned he has this issue at 5/6m, so it is possible that gas is expanding if he went deeper before. I should have a look at his diving profile to say it, here I am just throwing some suggestions - without expectations

 

[BlueTrin]

So I think part of it was that I literally never dove a restricted environment so shallow. So when I came up to something like 3-4m from 8m with no option to dump before, I would find it actually hard to dump so close to the surface.

I think I eventually got better at that since I asked the question.

I still think I have a lot of room to improve: when I was following the instructor I could clearly see he was gliding effortlessly compared to me.

Also it took me some time to stop the habit using the rear dump when going upwards and using the inflator dump, I think I can now roll slightly on the side and dump a bit while going up from both the drysuit and inflator valve, need more practice …

 

[berndo]

It can, but it can also be due to other factors (for instance, the unbalanced position of the weights). Also, he mentioned that he is slightly negative, so this factor can be a trigger of his "instability" feelings that make him kick so fast. Just thinking loud here

He said he feels like he is rolling. That's not a weight placement issue.

He said something similar to @ginti , also apparently I didn’t extend fully the leg.

As you ascent you need to lower you're feet so dumping gas from you suit easier. It's fine to get out of trim into a head-up position to dump gas from your suit. Eitherway though, having some air in the legs doesn't have much or any impact on the power of your kick or your glide distance.
Your buddy gets further with one kick because he pushes against more resistance due to his better fin angle.
In theory, there is really not much too it. It's just that you need to develop a feel for it.

 

[ginti]

He said he feels like he is rolling. That's not a weight placement issue.

It can be a weight placement if they are not symmetrically distributed. This is possible if wearing a belt, if having weights in the pockets, and (I think) even with a big canister light, etc.

Again, this is another minor issue, but in my experience, the OP's problem is often the result of several micro-causes, not just the result of one big problem (if it were just one big problem, it would be easy to spot). This is why I keep mentioning little details that, although small, could potentially contribute to the result.

Now, I cannot say if this is an issue or not; only the OP can. But if it is a problem, it is probably one of the easiest to work on, so it makes sense to consider it even if it is minimal.

Anyway, worthless to insist here, I think the OP got the point already

EDIT: I interpret rolling as a rotation around the spinal cord, not sure if I am right:

 

[berndo]

... the OP's problem is often the result of several micro-causes, ...

Lol, mirco causes. People can kick with air in the legs and not so great weight placement. Many people just have never been taught a propper kicking technique. As I said, what he described is very common. If he would try what I described and find a better fin angle and more resistance etc. his kick would get better. And he would also find out whether his trim or buoyancy is off.

It can be a weight placement if they are not symmetrically distributed. ...

... although small, could potentially contribute to the result.

No, not really. Weight placement and a little air in the legs is way overrated since you trim and changes throughout the dive anyways. Not so much with a single tank but in doubles and stages. As you breath down tanks, your trim shifts. Most doubles get butt light just as sidemount tanks and stages do.
That would have more of an impact than any 'micro cause' weight placement could have.
When you carry a heavy nitrox stage on one side your weight is not even close to being symmetrically distributed. You're several pounds heavier on one side and it doesn't cause people to roll.
Back in the day people used huge and really heavy battery packs for can lights and it didn't have an impact on my kick.
I like to wear 5 mm wetsuit booties as drysuit boots and they compress, that also causes a trim shift in theory you might say, but I don't even notice it.

What people seem to really underrate is just putting in hours in. You don't even have to do training dives just go diving.

 

[ginti]

@berndo I find it interesting that you know all the solutions, even if you know the problem only through a forum. I take note because there is certainly a lot to learn from you

 

[berndo]

@berndo I find it interesting that you know all the solutions, even if you know the problem only through a forum. I take note because there is certainly a lot to learn from you

As I said a couple of times already, what he describes in the OP is very common.
It's unfortunately very common that people take a cave or trimix class and the instructor doesn't spend much time teaching or fixing fin kicks.
If, in addition to kicking technique, he has a trim or buoyancy issue, he'd find out by swimming over a closly platform a few times.
I don't know 'all the solotions' but I know the solotions to the some common issues many people have. Talk to any instructor who's been doing it for longer and they will tell you that the same stuff comes up over and over again.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Warning: don't try this at home, it's bad for you, there are less damaging stretches for the joints involved
If you can do this, you can frog-kick well:

There’s no way in hell I could do that stretch after a full hip replacement. That would be a trip to the emergency room for me to get my leg back into the socket.

 

[ChrisDee]

Warning: don't try this at home, it's bad for you, there are less damaging stretches for the joints involved
If you can do this, you can frog-kick well:

Don't try this period.

Good way to permently ruin many ligaments.

This: Lower limb injuries in breaststroke swimmers - Central Coast Physiotherapy

I listen so many saying scuba is differerent, diving is swimming your opinion harmfull, or rate of the kick in scuba means it is ok. Where does some of this unsupported opinion come from when there is much evedence that your permently injuring yourselves? The rate of kick dosen't matter, the repetition does, the force of every kick matters, one mistake and ligaments, etc, are so easisly damaged, your anotomy matters, but yet again so many give advice can lead to knee replacment permenant physicial therrapy.