frequent divers need less weight?
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justinthedeeps
Contributor
When you've got 4 to 8 students on a tight schedule every day, and half of them can't be taught to descend properly at the first 5-10 minutes of every dive, while the rest of the students wait around (or are alone on the bottom)--you just put more weights on 'em, issue their cert cards, never see them again, repeat..... and/or sell them an "advanced course" immediately 
An interesting survey would be (for instructors):
1) How many students (fraction) do you pass who never actually achieved and demonstrated proper weighting and descent skills
2) How much more time, per open water dive, would be required to for you ensure proper weighting and descent skills
3) How many times were you not able to ensure proper weighting and descent skills because you needed (but didn't have) a second instructor or divemaster on the dive with you to keep an eye those who have already descended
An interesting survey would be (for instructors):
1) How many students (fraction) do you pass who never actually achieved and demonstrated proper weighting and descent skills
2) How much more time, per open water dive, would be required to for you ensure proper weighting and descent skills
3) How many times were you not able to ensure proper weighting and descent skills because you needed (but didn't have) a second instructor or divemaster on the dive with you to keep an eye those who have already descended
justinthedeeps
Contributor
I hear that in the old/original days, this kind of thing was taken more seriously by instructors, during courses that were not as McDive as they are now. Nowdays people get rushed through their basic AND "advanced" course for about ~$1000 and still come out being less refined than NAUI diver did from a $200 course decades ago.
But yes some people who keep diving eventually end up figuring out some of the stuff that could have been sorted during training. Some.
But yes some people who keep diving eventually end up figuring out some of the stuff that could have been sorted during training. Some.
Frankly, this puzzles me.When you've got 4 to 8 students on a tight schedule every day, and half of them can't be taught to descend properly at the first 5-10 minutes of every dive, while the rest of the students wait around (or are alone on the bottom)--you just put more weights on 'em, issue their cert cards, never see them again, repeat..... and/or sell them an "advanced course" immediately
An interesting survey would be (for instructors):
1) How many students (fraction) do you pass who never actually achieved and demonstrated proper weighting and descent skills
2) How much more time, per open water dive, would be required to for you ensure proper weighting and descent skills
3) How many times were you not able to ensure proper weighting and descent skills because you needed (but didn't have) a second instructor or divemaster on the dive with you to keep an eye those who have already descended
1. Zero. Not even close.
2. Zero. Not even close. In fact, once I went to neutrally buoyant instruction from the start of CW 1, it takes LESS time.
3. Zero. Not even close.
My "zero" answers include the times before I started with neutrally buoyant instruction, when I had to transition from them being initially overweighted to having them properly weighted from the first pol session on. Students are overweighted in OW instruction so they can kneel comfortably during instruction. If you don't have them kneel then, you do not have problems.
When you've got 4 to 8 students on a tight schedule every day, and half of them can't be taught to descend properly at the first 5-10 minutes of every dive, while the rest of the students wait around (or are alone on the bottom)--you just put more weights on 'em, issue their cert cards, never see them again, repeat..... and/or sell them an "advanced course" immediately
An interesting survey would be (for instructors):
1) How many students (fraction) do you pass who never actually achieved and demonstrated proper weighting and descent skills
2) How much more time, per open water dive, would be required to for you ensure proper weighting and descent skills
3) How many times were you not able to ensure proper weighting and descent skills because you needed (but didn't have) a second instructor or divemaster on the dive with you to keep an eye those who have already descended
Answer 1&3 none
Answer 2 about 20mins in CW with max 4 students
next
When I was learning at the Y, the instructor eyeballed us, and gauged, with some success, the amount of weight we required, while in the pool; and occasionally handed out small ingots, for the BC pockets, when he was rarely off.
During the open-water sessions, he did much the same thing; took some weights away from some; added more to others. We were never over-weighted during our skill sets; he never saw that necessity of weighing us down, as I had mentioned in a previous thread, like mob informants. He would rather have us swim down than sink, referring to it as "skin diving" not "sinking."
I've carried much the same amount of ballast over the years, seldom exceeding ten pounds, with a 7 mm suit, with a 72, 80 or 100 CF tank -- occasionally adding more for drysuits with undergarments, or under extremely surgy conditions; much less for 3 mm surf suits.
I have noticed, over the years, those who had been over-weighted in their initial classes, typically persisted with that habit . . .
During the open-water sessions, he did much the same thing; took some weights away from some; added more to others. We were never over-weighted during our skill sets; he never saw that necessity of weighing us down, as I had mentioned in a previous thread, like mob informants. He would rather have us swim down than sink, referring to it as "skin diving" not "sinking."
I've carried much the same amount of ballast over the years, seldom exceeding ten pounds, with a 7 mm suit, with a 72, 80 or 100 CF tank -- occasionally adding more for drysuits with undergarments, or under extremely surgy conditions; much less for 3 mm surf suits.
I have noticed, over the years, those who had been over-weighted in their initial classes, typically persisted with that habit . . .
I agree with the OP's premise (assuming I'm understanding it correctly). I was a busy, full-time DM/instructor/cave diver, for years, and I not only observed that experienced divers tended to need less weight, I saw it in myself, compared to my first year or so of diving. I steadily progressed to needing less and less weight. (diving with as little weight as possible was one of those friendly-competition/bragging-rights type things between divers, like coming up from a dive with 1500 psi, when the rest of the boat was down to 500).
I had a favorite amount of lead to wear, depending on the suit i wore, but more times than i could recall, I've handed off my extra weights to an under-weighted diver, then some weights off my own belt, and even removed my entire belt and strapped it around the diver.
Sometimes we'd get surprised by the shop with extra divers, or some would need way more weight than we had available on the boat or beach, so I'd be the one to travel light, but once I got a few feet below the surface, I could dive comfortably with almost no weight,depending on the suit (though the safety stop might be a headache with a low tank). I was less likely to handle any of that nearly as well back when I was a new diver.
I had a favorite amount of lead to wear, depending on the suit i wore, but more times than i could recall, I've handed off my extra weights to an under-weighted diver, then some weights off my own belt, and even removed my entire belt and strapped it around the diver.
Sometimes we'd get surprised by the shop with extra divers, or some would need way more weight than we had available on the boat or beach, so I'd be the one to travel light, but once I got a few feet below the surface, I could dive comfortably with almost no weight,depending on the suit (though the safety stop might be a headache with a low tank). I was less likely to handle any of that nearly as well back when I was a new diver.
justinthedeeps
Contributor
You are the exception, believe me....
justinthedeeps
Contributor
Same as I said about the other bloke. You are the exception now, when it comes to basic open water course instruction. I applaud you!
justinthedeeps
Contributor
Step 1: Let ALL of the air out of the BCD.
Step 2: Try it again, but actually let it all out this time (trust me...)
Step 3: Stop moving
Step 4: Yes this includes your hands
Step 5: and your legs
Step 6: Really though, stop moving
Step 7: Are sinking already? You're overweighted. Remove some weight [most instructors/guides skip this one...]
Step 8: Now breathe out a little bit to begin the descent
Step 9: No really, stop kicking
Step 10: Did you blow your safety stop on ascent? Was your BCD actually empty? Were you actually horizontal, and/or not kicking? [Probably no to one or both]
Step 2: Try it again, but actually let it all out this time (trust me...)
Step 3: Stop moving
Step 4: Yes this includes your hands
Step 5: and your legs
Step 6: Really though, stop moving
Step 7: Are sinking already? You're overweighted. Remove some weight [most instructors/guides skip this one...]
Step 8: Now breathe out a little bit to begin the descent
Step 9: No really, stop kicking
Step 10: Did you blow your safety stop on ascent? Was your BCD actually empty? Were you actually horizontal, and/or not kicking? [Probably no to one or both]
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