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[herman]

is everyone/anyone allowed to own gun(s) in the US?:shocked2:

As long as you are not a criminal or mentally insane, yes.

 

[FredT]

I don't know if the NRA would agree with what he did or not, but it does say something about the gun culture....

R..

Not really. No legally armed civilian citizen would EVER do that.

It does however say volumes about the sanity of those running the "Airport Security" in this country, and the primary reason I drive instead of fly in this country. The head of Israeli airport security has examined the system in this country and declared that US "does not have airport security, the US has passenger harassment."
FT

 

[Sinbad the Diver]

None. but I thought this thread was off to a slow start and needed a little help

I do know a little about the issue from what I hear on TV and the internet. I remember reading somewhere that about 40,000 people a year are killed by guns in the US (those might be old figures and I don't know if there are any recent trends), which any way you look at it is much higher than in any other country in the world.

It's natural, I would think, for people to be concerned about that. And we're only talking about the deaths. If injuries were included you'd probably want to poop yourself.

As I recall accident rates were actually quite low but homicides and suicides accounted for about 95% of gun related deaths, with suicide accounting for marginally more victims than homicides. I also know that ownership of guns doesn't explain this phenomenon very well because some countries with high levels of gun ownership, like Sweden, have low levels of fire-arms related deaths.... Nevertheless, one could conclude as I suggested above that if organisations like the NRA tend, for what ever reason, to promote vigilate justice (It doesn't take very much digging to come to the conclusion that the NRA promotes gun ownership as a means to fight crime. I think it took me one or two mouse clicks to find that) and that the culture somehow tends to glorify that as in many Holywood films, that it exacerbates the problem. In fact, I would say it partly explains the problem.

Ergo, I would argue that the NRA either should start to promote gun ownership for sport only, or the pressure for them to do so should continue. At this point I think getting a fence around gun ownership in teh US probably won't slow down the murder and suicide rates very much. Other solutions, like getting organisations like the NRA to take a differnce stance about guns may be more effective.

As for "continuing" to comment on US gun laws, I don't recall every commenting on it before. Maybe I did but then your memory is better than mine. In fact, I don't know anything about US gun laws. I know that your constitution for historical reasons has given the civil population a right to bear arms and I know a little bit about the statistics. I know nothing about your laws. From the look of the statistics, I'm surprised that there even *are* any laws, tbh.

R..

So, basically you get your info from the European media and the internet and have no idea what life in the US is actually like or what the NRA actually does.

Let's put some facts to this. According to the US Dept of Justice Statistics in 2001, the last year that seems to be published, there were 29,500 firearm related deaths in the US. That is out of a population of 285 Mil. 58% were suicides. The idea that people are not going to commit suicide if they don't have a gun is rather amusing to say the least. Less than 1,000 were accidents. The remainder were homicides, which means that these are people that are willing to break about the most serious law there is, so you think a law that says they can't have a gun is going to stop them? One of the cities with the highest murder rates every year are Washington DC where guns were completely outlawed until last year.

As for the NRA promoting vigilantism, that's a stretch of the facts. They support gun ownership and the idea that people have a right to defend themselves, especialy in their homes. In addition, the NRA is the largest proponent of gun safety training and sponsors major efforts and training programs to teach people how to safely handle guns, including programs to teach children what to do if they find a gun.

The biggest reason the NRA does not support gun ownership for sport only is that our constitution protects our rights to own guns period. Not for sport, not for protection from criminals, but for protection from the abuses of govt. The US was founded and grew as a place for people to escape the tyrany of govt. And as such, we defend our individual freedoms above all. The result of that is a society that many in the world do not understand, but we don't understand how people in europe can give so many off their personal freedoms away and place so much faith in their future in their govt.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Deleted

 

[Sinbad the Diver]

As long as you are not a criminal or mentally insane, yes.

not quite true...there are several cities that ban ownership of firmarms either through outright bans or through permitting requirements that equate to virtual bans because no one can get an ownership permit. Now, I guess you could say that anyone that lives in those places or most big cities IMO is mentally insane....so I guess you are right.

 

[Diver0001]

R,
You confuse vigilate justice with self defence, no one, esp the NRA condones vigilate justice, the going out and looking for trouble. On the other hand, they...we.. do believe we have the right to be safe where ever we go and in our homes. While the police will defend you IF they are around, by the very nature of criminals and how they work, the police are almost never around. Do some research off the CNN and Brady org sites. A good thing to do some research on it the occurances of hot (knowing someone is at home) burguleries in the US vs Great Britian. Here is some data you may find interesting. Gun Control And as for TV and the movies....well they are just that TV and movies. I have been in the "gun culture" all my life and spend many many hours at the range. For the most part (yea there are some nut cases) they are the nicest most civil people you will ever meet.

What I find interesting in all this -- and this is, in fact, something about American culture that I don't understand -- is why people in the US confuse having a gun with being safe.

In about 200 other countries in the world people find a way to deal with their apprehension and fear of each other in other ways. I live in one of the (if not THE) most densely populated countries in the western world and believe me there is more than enough fear and more than enough burglary to go around here as well but the rate of homicide and fire-arms induced death is very low. The Dutch might be a bad example, because they don't actually have a right to defend themselves against criminals (at least not meaningfully) but everywhere you look, all over the world, people find ways to defend themselves without intent to inflict grievous bodily injury or death. It's a matter of scale.

To me, there are in fact two kinds of "gun culture". There's the kind that like their guns, they shine them, they clean them, they take pictures of themselves shooting them for their blogs, they keep track of their best scores at the range and they compare notes with their friends. Basically they have a lot of fun with them. These are the people you're talking about, I think.

Then there's the "other" gun culture. The culture of fear and paranoia. The culture of looking for a means to "feel" safe, a way to feel in control. The culture that confuses self defense with the right to murder someone who scares you ....

One of those I can perfectly follow. The other is completely.... well ... (for lack of a beter word) nutzoid, to my way of thinking. What makes it seem nutzoid to me is that only in America do people somehow manage to twist the "safety" argument to the point where they're in fact arguing that they have the right to kill. Do you (general you, I"m not sure *you* really think this) really think that Americans are the only people in the world who aren't safe on the streets? Do you really think that burglary doesn't happen anywhere else? Do you not find it strange that the other almost 6 billion people on this planet have found other ways to deal with one another than by arming themselves?

hmmm

R..

 

[Diver0001]

deleted

 

[Sinbad the Diver]

So I turned around and walked the other way.... then found a toilet to wash out my underwear, the whole time saying to myself "Only in America".


I don't know if the NRA would agree with what he did or not, but it does say something about the gun culture....

R..

Only in America, hardly, the idea that you made a common mistake and a cop/respresentative of the govt pointed a gun at you and threatened to shoot you if you did not follow directions. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't do that in some third world hole where he wouldn't have said stop...he would have just shot or taken you into custody and locked you away until they decided to let you go.

The NRA would have no opinion on this situation, nor is this a reflection on the so called gun culture the media loves to portray. As a matter of fact, it's just the opposite. It is an example of overzealous acts by a representative of the govt. Here is some rent-a-cop or possibly a TSA officer, not sure of timing of this, who was enforcing the rules appropriately, but chose to go a little overboard in how he chose to do so according to your account. In the US, those of us that support the 2nd amendment are more concerned about him than about the millions of individuals who own guns.

 

[Diver0001]

So, basically you get your info from the European media and the internet and have no idea what life in the US is actually like or what the NRA actually does.

Dude, play the ball. Save the ad hominem approach because it just makes you look foolish.

Let's put some facts to this.

Your facts seem to differ from mine. The numbers I quoted before were reported in a study done by the Oxford university. I presume the difference has to do with the manner of record keeping.

As for the NRA promoting vigilantism, that's a stretch of the facts. They support gun ownership and the idea that people have a right to defend themselves, especialy in their homes.

I know. When you tell someone it's ok to shoot a burgler then I think you cross the line between self defence and vilgilante justice for the simple reason that there are SO *SO* many other non lethal ways to defend yourself. The fear that people have that they will either "kill or be killed" is the "gun culture" I was talking about before and I believe, at least based on what I've seen on the internet that the NRA doesn't do very much to address this fundamental issue.

In addition, the NRA is the largest proponent of gun safety training and sponsors major efforts and training programs to teach people how to safely handle guns, including programs to teach children what to do if they find a gun.

I'm quite aware of that. I didn't say before and I"m not saying now that I"m ANTI NRA. I just believe that the NRA has a societal roll to play in addressing the gun culture issue I just mentioned above and I don't see any evidence that that's happening. But like you said, I don't live in the USA so if the NRA is going around telling people to chill out and find less leathal ways of defending themselves then please, by all means quote it and I'll be more than happy to read it.

The US was founded and grew as a place for people to escape the tyrany of govt. And as such, we defend our individual freedoms above all. The result of that is a society that many in the world do not understand, but we don't understand how people in europe can give so many off their personal freedoms away and place so much faith in their future in their govt.

Fair enough. I take your point. I do believe, however, that you would be well advised to consider the possibility that the US "freedom at all costs" model (if I may call it that) comes at a high price.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

The NRA would have no opinion on this situation, nor is this a reflection on the so called gun culture the media loves to portray. .

I didn't say that arbitrarily. I do believe it reflects upon the "fear" and "control" aspects I mentioned before and therefore, at least to me, it does have something to do with the gun culture.

And not to use your own tactic against you because I really don't like exchanges of ad hominems but how much time have you spent in 3rd world countries? I've spent a fair amount of time traveling and I've been in some really deep holes but I've never felt more threatened anywhere at any time than I did in the Portland airport.

R..