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Force Fins Pro personal review

Discussion in 'Fins, Masks and Snorkels' started by vixtor, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Lake Worth, Florida, United States
    Hal Watts is hardly someone you would want to emulate for cave diving--though he may be legendary in his ad budgets....The WKPP is the undisputed cream of the cream for cave and high silt environment, and the Jets and frog kick will never be disputed for the biggest power caves in the world.

    As to speed....I can easily do a mile in under 30 minutes with my C4 Freediving fins......Any time you want to have some SEAL try to keep up with me, I'll pay the air fare :)

    I would not mind being part of a real High Speed Fin Challenge ( i.e., being a $500 sponsor of the event...

    .....The EVENT: Divers are dropped on Juno Ledge at 85-90 foot depth, where they begin on the bottom, and stay there till at 700psi ( all begin with exactly 3000psi in a 80cu ft tank).....Diver who gets farthest upcurrent, wins. Divers on Gavin scooters will monitor air supply of all contestants. No one is allowed to get under 700psi ( hard breathing/duration and depth could make ascent dangerous if contestants are allowed to run to OOA :)
    Real World speed endurance test, not some advertorial joke like you would see in Rodales :)

    What this form of contest/test will show:
    1. Can a diver maintain a high rate of speed for a long duration with a certain type of fins
    2. Which fins are most efficient ( though this is really specific to each diver,, as one efficient for John doe may be poorly efficient for John Smith)--still, it will be a measure of efficiency
    3. Does a given category or type of fin reduce air consumption when used at "cruising speeds"
    4. Can freedivers with elite cardio systems smoke Navy SEALS wearing FF or Jets in this type of contest..my bet is they can !!!
    Dan Volker
  2. jlovold

    jlovold Barangay Pasaway

    # of Dives:
    Location: Sandnes Norway
    You are clearly misunderstanding something...

    Everything is not about speed or thrust!

    But speaking about thrust, the numbers you showed are about sustained thrust, not instant thrust. There jetfins crushes the FFs. I dont have any numbers, but I am a commercial diver, and have used both...

    I don't care about navyseals or other sf-dudes, because their needs are not the same as mine, or most other divers out there (what they think they need is another matter)

    And sure, all respect to Hal Watts, but technical diving is continuously evolving, and his ways may not be cutting edge anymore...

    Btw, how fast do you go when using modified flutterkicks close to the bottom? What if you have to turn or back away from something?
  3. meesier42

    meesier42 Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Kennewick, WA
    cream of the crop... only in that certify more people, nothing to say they are better

    I had C4's, then I realized that my free dives where ~15 seconds longer in my FF Extra's and sold them. The question was to show me someone in Jets do it.

    sounds like a test similar to what I did a couple years ago, the Force Fin Pro's where the top. We didn't include long blades. You would be surprised just how elite the cardo systems of a Seal is, many of the ones I knew where the same guys that I would free dive with and they were no joke,

    the static thrust is a peak thrust. not a sustained event. even the 20 meter sprints isn't a sustained thrust.

    back kicking, maneuverability etc of a Force Fin is basically unmatched. Swimming close to the bottom at speed, why would I do that? The only time speed is of value is spearfishing or over coming a current, neither time are you worried about being close to the bottom. But... given the tight kick that FF use, the speed is not effected, which is one of the reasons I use them for u/w hockey, where I have to be on the bottom, at speed, and be extremely maneuverable and powerful at the same time.

    as far a technical diving evolving- you don't think PSAI methods are evolving at least as fast as the sport is, but yet they still recommend FF
  4. jlovold

    jlovold Barangay Pasaway

    # of Dives:
    Location: Sandnes Norway
    By sustained thrust I mean a series of kicks. I mean a single powerful kick.

    In a strong current I try to swim as close to the bottom as possible.

    PSAI is IMO not cutting edge in tech diving. Do you know any other organizations teaching narcosis management courses to 70m?

    I have hundreds of dives with FFs, both pro and extra, and believe me, they can't hold a candle to jetfins (with frogkicks, heliturn, backing) when speaking of control, maneuverability and feedback.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2009
  5. danvolker

    danvolker Dive Shop

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Lake Worth, Florida, United States
    Hey Meesier, WKPP does not certify divers..they are the top deep cave exploratory team in the world, and the people who originated the complilation of Hogarthian techniques and ideas, known as DIR DIving. Through the 90's, many people begged to learn the WKPP style of diving, but could not become a team member. Somewhere around 2002 or 2004, One of the lead exploriers in the WKPP, Jarrod Jablonski, formed GUE to teach DIR diving. They are certainly the most difficult agency to get a tech card in, and many people can never get certified GUE. The point of mentioning them, was that no one in deep cave exploration has a better record than the WKPP, and they mandate Jetfins and frogkick for the high silt areas of caves.
    I am not trying to detract from FF's, as I have said they are great fins for many divers....I am trying to help you to avoid a representation that is not optimal for Force Fins....and clearly cave divers are a very tiny subset of all divers....if Bob Evans wants this little niche market, then he is just going to have to create a new cave diving Force fin that kicks butt in it's ability to frog kick :)

    The 40 meter c4's?
    I would be tempted to fly you down here to S Fla to show me this in person :)
    In my experience, there is no fin that comes close to the c4 40 meter fins....at least for my physiology...yours must be very different than mine.

    I have a friend who was a SEAL Trainer....and I know a couple of SEALS.
    Yes they have good cardio, but they would be competing with someone with elite cardio, who has fins more adapted to big muscles and big cardio ( than FF's are. )
    And of course, SEALS could NEVER use C4 freediving fins for missions---the C4's are extremely fragile, so forget about jumping out of helicopters..I have to dive in head first off the back of dive boats to avoid blade overflexing. And as gear, the C4's have to be handled carefully. This is no problem for a scuba diver, but it would be a deal breaker for SEALS.

    If you dove in a high current environment like South Florida, Palm beach in particular, you would quickly appreciate how much the current SLOWS DOWN where it contacts the bottom--this being caused by "skin friction drag". If you want to go sideways in a huge 4 mph current, you get right on the bottom--and the same is true if you want to go up current. When we lobster dive off of Juno ( north palm beach) in the 95 foot deep stuff over the offshore side of the crown, there are many blowouts you come to, full of lobster, but typically a hundred yards or more apart...and you may have to swim very far sideways, and even up current sometimes, to get into a good blowout with 50 to 100 lobster in it.

    Or, you could drift by a wreck previously unknown, and to reach it, be force to swim sideways and upcurrent....you would be belly to the bottom, and you would envy the ease I can do this with my C4's :)

    Again, when Bob Evans wants to make a real Freediving fin, I have every expectation that I will be able to brag about that fin, the way I now talk about the C4's...It is a different category of fin, for a different type of diver than the masses...and as Bob has gone after lots of sub categories of divers, this is something I expect he will do someday..hopefully soon.

  6. Ninja Diver

    Ninja Diver Dive Shop

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: St Louis
    I've never tried the Force Fin, however, I have tried the Omega fins that flip up when you're walking or getting on/off a boat.
    They are great when you are walking or getting on/off a boat. In other words, they are GREAT in the "up" position.
    However, once the fin was "down" I found it VERY STIFF. After a easy 15 minute dive, it was like having a board on the end of your foot. I love the concept, I hope they come out with a version that's not so stiff.
  7. DevonDiver

    DevonDiver N/A

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Subic Bay, Philippines
    I don't think 'flip fins' really even deserve to be included in the debate.
  8. mdb

    mdb ScubaBoard Sponsor ScubaBoard Sponsor

    This endless debate is just a personal opinion poll; the cult addicts posting over and over and others chiming in when they find this thread.

    Some like flippy flop bicycle kicks, others scissor kicks, some prefer low stress swim style kicks, each to their own.

    Find the fin that works for you. You will not find it on this site. You will find it in the water. Trust yourself.
  9. DevonDiver

    DevonDiver N/A

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Subic Bay, Philippines
    Personal opinion must have a lot to do with it.... because most of us don't have reams of statistical or scientific data to contribute.

    The trouble with personal opinions (as so often seen on the forum) is that:

    1. They only reflect your personal experience and situation.
    2. It is a small sample size (quite often people debate vociferously on an issue/item when they have not tried the alternative).
    3. Issues are argued too generalistically (i,e, which fin is best) rather than specifically (i,e which fin offers the best power to calorie output or which fin provides the most benefits for wreck penetration in silt conditions and why?).

    In this thread, we have seen the merits of fins debated from a perspective that ranges from 'underwater racing', to military spec ops to expeditionary cave exploration projects. Thread contributions have been made from divers across the globe, with varying interests and of very mixed experience levels. Of course there won't be a consensus.
  10. Bob Evans

    Bob Evans Loggerhead Turtle

    # of Dives: I'm a Fish!
    Location: Santa Barbara, California USA
    DevonDiver, Thank you for your post. I love SCUBABOARD since it washes in and out like the tide. Tomorrow we will follow with new thoughts. I am watching closely and learning. Trust yourself. Try the Force Fin Challenge.Force Fin Challenge

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