First dive of AOW class... Yukon 10/1/05, NOT fun.

[Scuba]

This guy ^^^ is absolutely correct, I was following blindly too when I started. In hind site, it's amazing that I'm still here?

The bottom line.

One can not possibly expect for a new diver to make a reasonable judgement call about something he barely knows anything about. Isn't this the reason why students entrust themselves through the learning process to their instructor? What good are instructors for anyways, if you can't trust them with the most basic element - safety guidance?

The Yukon appears to have become a popular AOW training dive. It offers easy boat access and a chain to the bottom. But I would question this site's selection for AOW training for new, inexperienced, barely skilled divers. It not only exposes the student to depth (narcosis), but often to poor visibility, cold, darkness, surge and currents, in addition to the possible risk of an inadvertant overhead penetration, and an ascent away from the boat and land, all in the same dive. Some of you may scream and holler this and that. But why wait for a tragedy to happen when it's readily apparent there are better, safer, choices out there.

Glad your alright, Skytzo_Marc. I think you've already learned the most valuable lesson in your experience. In this sport, you put your life on the line every dive. Don't blindly trust anyone. No matter how experienced, how many certifications, whether he's an instructor, an agency, or your next buddy. A tough challenge for a newby, but not insurmountable - if you are carefull to learn one step at a time and have a little luck.

 

[DandyDon]

This happened on Saturday and I posted this on myspace that very evening... several people recommended that I post it here as well.

I signed up for my AOW cert and we were supposed to do three dives on Saturday, two on Sunday. I'll start off with what I thought was happening and then explain what really happened.

<text omitted to shorten>

I can't see CRAP. I'm nearsighted as it is... which normally isn't a problem but given what happened here, I'm getting prescription lenses before I dive again. At this point I can't tell if my mask is fogged or if it's just the water vis. Anyways, all I see is yellow/green water and the outline of the rusty ship known as the Yukon.

At this point I am wondering if you knew that this is a sport, not a hobby, or as so many erroneously think - not a vacation activity. When you were reading the course material, did you not give the possibilities deep thought, or were you expecting a hand-held class? If you're nearsighted, why were you continuing instructions without a prescription mask? As far as that goes, I wonder why anyone would continue to AOW without his/her own gear. BTW, carry the light on each and every dive; I carry two on every one. Lost count of how many times I was glad I did on day dives.

I don't really remember much from them on but struggling to follow the group (might I add that neither I nor my dive partner were following procedure and sticking close to each other or checking our gauges something we should have done). Anyways, my fins keep hitting the wreck and that just makes me even more nervous. So now we've got anxiety factors like: I can't see well, bad depth perception, and it's cold as hell.

And you'd like to blame the Instructor for this, too, as well as not knowing what weight you should have in your own suit? You can learn from Instructors and other divers, but you plan your own dives - starting with gear at least one night before. I reemember that from my OW class.

I check my gauge and see that I'm at 1000 psi. So I signal low on air. NOBODY responds. I try knocking on tank but it makes no sound. I almost decided to pull out my dive knife to knock on my tank but given my poor depth perception I decided I'd rather not do that. Yay, another anxiety factor. Guess who's breathing too quickly at a depth of 100 feet? Sounds like a great way to get nitro narc to me... and not the happy drunk kind, how about the anxious panicky kind?

And you didn't call for a direct ascent then, then do it...?

I also try to defog my mask by flooding it (and looking up). The wonderful reg I rented doesn't breath well when I look up and it's so cold I can't tell if I'm exhaling through my nose or my mouth... all I see is bubbles.


At this point I'm going to explain what I thought happened, and then what really happened.

I honestly don't remember much after that other than being uncomfortable. Suddenly, there is a diver in front of me (who looks like the instructor) so I signal low on air. The diver offers me their secondary. I must have been out of my mind because I accept it. After taking a breath from it I realize: "I don't need this, I still have enough air to ascend" so I hand it back. That's when I swallow water.

YAY for panic. I grab back the secondary from the diver, breath, then locate my reg and put it back in my mouth. At this point I'm off my rocker. I signal up immediately.

The diver signals ok, lifts up their inflator hose and releases the air. We start sinking. I check my depth gauge and we're going from 85 feet back down to 100. I start screaming into my reg: "GO UP!!!" Yes, I'm fully panicked at this point. I almost wanted to hit the other diver because I thought they did it on purpose.

Suddenly, I'm surrouned by two other divers and we begin to ascend. My heart is racing... I'm not paying attention but I think that the other divers noticed my panic attack and have decided to surface as group. We perform a safe ascent and it's not until 60 feet that I realize that there are only 4 of us... not 5.

As the water gets brighter and warmer I finally start to calm down slightly... but I'm still quite insane.

We hit a safety stop at 15 feet and while I'm holding onto everybody, I'm fine... but then I let go and I shoot to the surface (I'll remind you that I was panicked and not thinking about dumping air).

When we get to the surface I start asking where U is (my dive partner). BF states that U grabbed him and shot for the surface (at this point I thought he was talking about me) and then we see U on the boat. ON THE BOAT.

Yeah, I've dived with him. Still get an email from him now and then about diving together again. Haven't had time to answer.

So what really happened?

My dive partner, U got extremely dizzy at one point. He grabbed onto the nearest diver and signaled not ok. This other diver was BF, not me. BF thinks U is out of air so he offers him a secondary but U just knocks it out of the way and shoots for the surface. Along the way, U starts blacking out and says that he couldn't see anything on the ascent or remember what happened. Meanwhile he has a death grip on BF that he doesn't let go of until they hit 30 feet.

The instructor sees BF and U shoot for the surface and goes right after them. This leaves myself (who can't see crap or what's going on) and GF. GF sees her BF being drug to the surface by a madman and so she grabs me.

When she saw me signal to go up, she indeed tried to but says she just started sinking. Let me venture a guess and say that both of us were overweighted.

Anyways, after U lets go of BF at 30 ft, BF and the instructor then return to us and thats when we made a safe ascent.

It's DAMN lucky that nobody got hurt. NOBODY was following proper procedure at all. To my knowledge, nobody got DCI but everyone was pretty f-ed up on the boat and we all concluded that we weren't going to dive. I also refused to dive Sunday.

Upon retrospect I should have followed my instincts. I saw several things wrong that the instructor should have pointed out and corrected first but didn’t so I decided to trust the more experienced diver instead of the book. BAD idea.

What do I think should have happened?

1) The instructor should have scheduled the wreck dive and the deep dive separately. He planned to dive the Yukon twice, once as the wreck dive and once as the deep dive. That’s the exact same dive with both of the added danger factors.

2) The instructor should have covered the deep diver material as well as the wreck material before diving. I’m sorry, I don’t care if you want to technically count the first dive as the wreck dive, it is STILL a deep dive that none of the OW students had experience with.

3) The instructor should have taken the students on an easy shallower dive first, to see if they were capable of handling such a dangerous dive. He could have taken us on a nav dive off of La Jolla instead.

4) The instructor should have recognized that the students were using rental gear that they were not used to. He should have allowed us time to weight up correctly at the shore/dock first and then perhaps practice a few drills with our partners.

Up to this point I’ve been withholding the name of the dive shop because I wanted to find out if the instructor was just bad or if it represented the dive shop in general. The manager assured me the head dive instructor would call me. I spoke to the manager on Sunday, still no calls. If I get no response soon I’m not going to bother trying to save their reputation and I’m going to write a letter to PADI.

On my part, I should have refused to dived and I should have studied the material much more thoroughly.

Anyways any comments or advice would be greatly appreciated. I still keep kicking myself in the head for being so stupid and I'm glad that I'm alive.

Call the Agency: 1-800-PAY-PADI, but don't expect anything to happen. I know many better Instructors, but have dived with many worse, too.

Good luck in your future diving. Buy your own gear, reread your book with thought, plan your diving better, then - find the fun in safe diving.

 

[Skytzo_Marc]

If you're nearsighted, why were you continuing instructions without a prescription mask?

Because it hasn't been an issue before. In my dives during August, it was not a problem. Again, a problem with my inexperience. Given the low visibility in california I want to be able to see as best as possible from now on.

And you'd like to blame the Instructor for this, too, as well as not knowing what weight you should have in your own suit? You can learn from Instructors and other divers, but you plan your own dives - starting with gear at least one night before. I reemember that from my OW class.

I'm not blaming the instructor for not knowing how much weight I needed. I'm saying he should have recognized my own inexperience as well as the inexperience of the other divers... and then recognized that the Yukon was a very poor site to dive. Prior to getting on the boat, I did not know the dive site was the Yukon, nor the depth. I was also told it was better to rent your gear the day of the dive, not the day before. I was told that I would be performing a wreck, deep, night, nav, and boat dive. The boat dive was later changed to DPV and I was informed that the deep dive was off the shore on Sunday. I did indeed read all of the chapters prior to diving (actually a few weeks in advance because my AOW class got pushed back) but given the information I had, I did not re-review the deep section that day because I had not anticipated on doing a deep dive first. I was planning to review the deep dive section later in the evening.

The whole situation was rushed. I wasn't given information up until the very last minute. But I see your point. Next time somebody tells me I'm going diving for a class I'm going to get the details first.

And you didn't call for a direct ascent then, then do it...?

I thought I stated that nobody was paying attention to me. Pull a direct ascent without my dive partner or anybody noticing? Isn't that against the book as well? I was taught that you get the attention of your partner before you ascend, you don't just ditch them.

Yeah, I've dived with him. Still get an email from him now and then about diving together again. Haven't had time to answer.

Who?

Call the Agency: 1-800-PAY-PADI, but don't expect anything to happen. I know many better Instructors, but have dived with many worse, too.

Good luck in your future diving. Buy your own gear, reread your book with thought, plan your diving better, then - find the fun in safe diving.

You know what, as an instructor, your opinion and your actions tend to carry more weight than that of other divers, especially to new and inexperienced divers.

When people come over to my house to use my gym, if I don't know their capabilities, I don't let them pile on a ton of weight and attempt to do an exercise. I make them put on a low weight and then watch to see if they are able to do the exercise safely and in correct form before I let them go higher. I never let them do certain exercises without a spotter. I also do not let people lift weights with bad form, no matter how much it hurts their pride to use lighter weights.

I cannot begin to tell you how many people think that after years of not lifting, they'll magically be able to lift what they did in high school. In their limited weight lifting experience, they probably are pretty sure they lift some insane amount of weight right off the bat... but as the more experienced person, I have to make the call to force them to play it safe and do it light.

There is a responsibility of an instructor, especially one that is in a dangerous sport, to make a call that his/her lessor exeprienced students are unable to make. As the person with more experience and the mentor, you're looked on to make those calls.

I guess I assumed the same thing out of a dive instructor because my previous experiences with them has been that they do watch out for inexperienced divers.

But this doesn't take away from the fact that I keep banging my head for being stupid and not following my own gut instincts in which said I should have done a light beach dive and tested out the gear before doing a boat dive... but the instructor seemed to think it was ok if I didn't do that and I made a bad call in listening to him.

 

[DandyDon]

Sorry, I was in a bit of a mood there. I did have a preface that was supposed to go with my post, but lost it. :dork: I intended to at least say "I'll offer comments for you to make of as you might." Actually, it was better than that, but it's late in Texas, can't recall my eloquent words now. :doh:

I thought I stated that nobody was paying attention to me. Pull a direct ascent without my dive partner or anybody noticing? Isn't that against the book as well? I was taught that you get the attention of your partner before you ascend, you don't just ditch them.

Yep, you did. At 1,000 psi, at depth, you call for a direct ascent and then do it, preferably with your buddy - by do it nonetheless. But yes, you make this at least known to the buddy and Instructor - which is possible regardless. If you cannot make this know, there's another problem.

Who?

My weak joke, there. I've dived with more than one like that. ONCE!

 

[DeepSeaDan]

Marc et. al.,

While you're drafting your complaint to P.A.D.I. ( paperwork & excellent perspective courtesy of Scuba-Steve ), mention the idea that perhaps the organization might tighten up the process for becoming an Instructor.

I think PADI, & possibly all the other agencies as well, need to overhaul their processes for Instructor candidacy & certification, as a means of preventing situations such as the one to befall our hapless neophyte Marc.

I think becoming a diving Instructor should be a very long, very thorough, very detailed & very rigorous process; potential Course Directors should be subject to even greater scruitiny. Somewhere along the way, the idea that " anyone can scuba dive!" has been carried along to include "You too can be a Scuba Instructor!"

Unfortuneately, not everyone can, or should.

Regards,
D.S.D.

 

[Tom725]

While I would like to hear the other side of this incident before passing judgement, I would like to share some random thoughts.

It has been a while since I dove the Yukon. According to my log we did two dives to a maximum of 87 feet and I do not remember hanging out at the top. Is it posible the dive was planned for less than 100 feet?

Instructors are like any teacher, some are better than others. The more experienced tend to recognise trouble faster than newer ones.

I have had great students and some not so great. Some who said they were having trouble and were not and some who said they were fine that I had to rescue.

An Instructor offering encouragement can be mistaken for ignoring your concerns. It is a fine line.

AOW is just another step and when you take it is not as relevent as what you take out of it. It is a few more dives with an instructor and that is good. If you think it suddenly makes you a super diver then you are wrong not matter when you take it. It is my experience that divers will routinely exceed the 60 foot limit as OW divers (in fact I firmly believe anyone who takes a dive vacation with multiple dives will exceed the 60 foot limit regardless of their certification level) and so it is best to get the dive in early in your career with an and instructor.

 

[MikeFerrara]

AOW deep dives...one of the things I hate most in all the messed up dive industry. I almost got into trouble on mine, I've seen people get hurt and heard of more that have.

However, even PADI cautions instructors to do skill assessments and remediation if needed prior to continued training. I think the assessment they recommend is about useless but it's better than nothing.

there just isn't any sense in diving deep before you learn to dive shallow. Why take a student to 100 ft without having personal knowledge of their basic skills. When the diver tells you up front that they need to check their weighting, not only should you provide the time but you should make sure they get their trim dialed in too before messing around with a deep dive.

Something I've brought up often is the rediculouse fact that one can become an instructor and teach at 100 ft without ever having actually been that deep themselves before....if you have AOW you can do rescue, DM and IDC even if you're only deep dive was the 60 footer you did in your own AOW class. That way the instructor and the student who could be on his 5th lifetime dive (first post OW class dive) can experience 100 ft for the first time together.

Did the instructor have any assistants? I always liked to have LOTS of help when taking students to 100 ft and even then I think it's insane to go unless you have reason to believe that all the students are ready.

Oh well, live and learn. The world is full of idiots but when they decide to become dive instructors then they're dangerous.

 

[MikeFerrara]

ooops, I made a mistake. In my last post I said that I almost got in trouble on my AOW deep dive. That wasn't the dive. My AOW deep dive was standing on the bottom inside an old foundation at white Star quarry. Don't say it! I started out hovering but the instructor MADE us stand on the bottom. LOL

The one where I almost got in trouble was one of the dives for my "deep diver" specialty. We went to the ladder that used to be below the truck at Gilboa when the truck was suspended at about 80 ft. The top of the ladder was at about 100 ft as I remember. We were to go to the ladder and hang on for awhile, then up to the bell that used to be suspended at around 15 ft, then back down a bit and over to the wall which we planned to follow to the exit. The wall is only a few feet away but you couldn't see it that day, which is unusual for Gilboa. After comming out of the bell, the instructor dropped way faster than I could and I lost sight of him. I kept descending as fast as I could to keep up but never caught him. When I saw the truck again (at 80 ft) I figured we must have gone different directions. I could have guessed that he headed for the wall but at what depth and which direction was that lousy wall. Of course, as luck would have it there was a wall on three sides of the truck but which side was I on? No panic...just a little lost, maybe a tad narced and definately dizzy from all that going up and down. I never did really find out why he just swam off and left me. All he said was that he thought I was right behind him. I should have asked him what made him think that. Surely, he didn't see me and there wasn't any one else there. Maybe he was narced. This may have been my first solo dive, BTW. Anyway, I lived and after many more screwed up dives I started to put 2 and 2 together and decide how I think things should be done.

 

[Skytzo_Marc]

It has been a while since I dove the Yukon. According to my log we did two dives to a maximum of 87 feet and I do not remember hanging out at the top. Is it posible the dive was planned for less than 100 feet?

Nope. The wreck lies on a slope so its depth ranges from the mid 80s to the 110s. I specifically remember him saying 100 feet because he had our class check the dive charts and the max no decomp time for 100 feet is 19 minutes.

AOW is just another step and when you take it is not as relevent as what you take out of it. It is a few more dives with an instructor and that is good. If you think it suddenly makes you a super diver then you are wrong not matter when you take it. It is my experience that divers will routinely exceed the 60 foot limit as OW divers (in fact I firmly believe anyone who takes a dive vacation with multiple dives will exceed the 60 foot limit regardless of their certification level) and so it is best to get the dive in early in your career with an and instructor.

I wasn't expecting to be super diver out of it... just a better one. So in a way I got what I expected... I'm going to be a hell lot more careful than before.

 

[Skytzo_Marc]

Did the instructor have any assistants? I always liked to have LOTS of help when taking students to 100 ft and even then I think it's insane to go unless you have reason to believe that all the students are ready.

The dive instructor didn't have any assistants.

In fact, when I got on the boat again, they had U, the DI, and BF lie on their sides to prevent DCI. The DI went home on oxygen. The dude wasn't even aware of what happened to GF and I until he was told by his manager, and I suspect the manager didn't tell the whole story because he didn't listen to me tell the whole story.

I'm guessing nobody on the boat except GF knew about what I went through, they just said I look messed up.

If anything else sticks out in my mind, the dive master on the boat was asking if all of us were ok. All of the students said shaken but fine. The instructor said he was pissed and then disappointed that we weren't going to dive on Sunday.