First dive at 40 meters - Newbies recreational

[boulderjohn]

You are asking for advise and getting opinions from experienced divers and instructors.

My head has been swimming throughout this thread, and I have something of a big picture commentary on it all.

I got certified quite a while ago and logged quite a few dives as an AOW diver before rapidly going from Rescue Diver to DM, after which I assisted in classes for a couple years before becoming an instructor. After being an OW instructor for a couple of years, I thought I was pretty much at the top of the game. Then I started tech instruction in the DIR mode. I realized that I was pretty much a beginner again, and I worked hard on my new skills.

I began to apply those tech skills to recreational diving, and I saw my fellow recreational divers in a new light. I remember one drift dive in Cozumel in which I was in the approved DIR position, flatly horizontal, my knees bent 90° with feet up and head tilted back as far as possible as I drifted. One of the other divers had assumed a (to me) strange position, almost a sitting hover, as we drifted past the coral wall. For some reason watching him annoyed me. He was clearly doing things wrong, because I was Doing It Right. Looking back at it, though, I realized he was totally comfortable in that position, and by moving his head wherever he wanted, he could easily see all the sights as we went by. As for me, my range of view was extremely limited by my body position, and I had to use my new helicopter turn skills to keep my body in position in the current to see even that narrow range. But I was doing it right, by golly, so he was doing it wrong.

Today I am a (non-DIR) trimix instructor and a cave diver. I have decent tech skills, but they rarely come into play on recreational dives. I realize now that I had a false sense of superiority during that middle period of my diving. Maybe I was frustrated that the other divers could not see the benefits of my superior training in that environment. I would like to think I am a bigger man than that, but maybe not.

Lots of recreational divers have no idea what SAC or RMV or SCR or whatever you want to call it means. So what? They can dive just fine without that knowledge, just as I did for many years, including my first years as an OW instructor. They can do a vertical ascent or descent just fine. They are not getting the supposed benefits of that beautiful horizontal ascent, which I suspect for most people amounts to a demonstration for all to see that they can do it. I now believe that when a lot of people get that superior training and experience they develop with it a psychological need to use it when it really isn't necessary, and with that comes an accompanying need to believe it is truly necessary for everyone else to do the same.

 

[Edward3c]

That would be an unusual life insurance policy. Have you ever heard of it .

About 20 years ago a trio of divers dived a wreck at 40m, one was only certified to 30m. Unfortunately, there was on incident and the 30m diver died. The life insurance company refused to pay out as the dive computer showed the certified depth had been exceeded the depth limit.

His wife had to sell the house and sue the two dive buddies, whose 3rd Party insurer wouldn’t support them.

 

[David Novo]

This was an NDL dive. Probably 99% of NDL dives do not preplan their gas usage to that extent. Explain the difference that would make in the dive.

Between 11 l/min and 12 l/min it would probably make no difference. But as the OP's description showed, none of those consumption rates would be appropriate to calculate his reserve. Between a suitable reserve and one calculated with 11 l/min, it could make a huge difference in case of emergency.

 

[David Novo]

My head has been swimming throughout this thread, and I have something of a big picture commentary on it all.

I got certified quite a while ago and logged quite a few dives as an AOW diver before rapidly going from Rescue Diver to DM, after which I assisted in classes for a couple years before becoming an instructor. After being an OW instructor for a couple of years, I thought I was pretty much at the top of the game. Then I started tech instruction in the DIR mode. I realized that I was pretty much a beginner again, and I worked hard on my new skills.

I began to apply those tech skills to recreational diving, and I saw my fellow recreational divers in a new light. I remember one drift dive in Cozumel in which I was in the approved DIR position, flatly horizontal, my knees bent 90° with feet up and head tilted back as far as possible as I drifted. One of the other divers had assumed a (to me) strange position, almost a sitting hover, as we drifted past the coral wall. For some reason watching him annoyed me. He was clearly doing things wrong, because I was Doing It Right. Looking back at it, though, I realized he was totally comfortable in that position, and by moving his head wherever he wanted, he could easily see all the sights as we went by. As for me, my range of view was extremely limited by my body position, and I had to use my new helicopter turn skills to keep my body in position in the current to see even that narrow range. But I was doing it right, by golly, so he was doing it wrong.

Today I am a (non-DIR) trimix instructor and a cave diver. I have decent tech skills, but they rarely come into play on recreational dives. I realize now that I had a false sense of superiority during that middle period of my diving. Maybe I was frustrated that the other divers could not see the benefits of my superior training in that environment. I would like to think I am a bigger man than that, but maybe not.

Lots of recreational divers have no idea what SAC or RMV or SCR or whatever you want to call it means. So what? They can dive just fine without that knowledge, just as I did for many years, including my first years as an OW instructor. They can do a vertical ascent or descent just fine. They are not getting the supposed benefits of that beautiful horizontal ascent, which I suspect for most people amounts to a demonstration for all to see that they can do it. I now believe that when a lot of people get that superior training and experience they develop with it a psychological need to use it when it really isn't necessary, and with that comes an accompanying need to believe it is truly necessary for everyone else to do the same.

I mentioned the horizontal ascent and I explained why I think it is relevant.
I don't get why DIR or non-DIR is relevant to this discussion.

 

[J-Vo]

If you were in their shoes, what would you criticize specifically and advise specifically?

There is not a lot of info hear about the specifics of your instruction, but you have 40 dives under the "supervision" of a DM/instructor, yet you still don't have the confidence in your own skills to go on an NDL dive with your primary dive buddy and no guide. This tells me that most of your dives have been "trust me" dives rather than instructional dives. Not really a dig at your instructor, as they probably learned through the same trial and error rather than having someone actually show them the "art" of diving.

Edit: My wife has about the same number of dives as you, but only 4 of those have been instructional. About half her dives have been un-guided (Bonaire, Grand Caymen). On all the un-guided dives she, plans the dive, the gas, and leads the dive. This insures I am not leading her on "trust me" dives, and in turn helps build her confidence and self reliance. At this point I would happily follow her on any NDL dive above 40m with every confidence that she could do it without issue.

 

[Dody]

There is not a lot of info hear about the specifics of your instruction, but you have 40 dives under the "supervision" of a DM/instructor, yet you still don't have the confidence in your own skills to go on an NDL dive with your primary dive buddy and no guide. This tells me that most of your dives have been "trust me" dives rather than instructional dives. Not really a dig at your instructor, as they probably learned through the same trial and error rather than having someone actually show them the "art" of diving.

I have done two today . Only difference is that my wife studied the environment and then we did it together. No sweat, really. Just extra work because we had no guide

 

[Blackcrusader]

My head has been swimming throughout this thread, and I have something of a big picture commentary on it all. I began to apply those tech skills to recreational diving, and I saw my fellow recreational divers in a new light. I remember one drift dive in Cozumel in which I was in the approved DIR position, flatly horizontal, my knees bent 90° with feet up and head tilted back as far as possible as I drifted. One of the other divers had assumed a (to me) strange position, almost a sitting hover, as we drifted past the coral wall. For some reason watching him annoyed me. He was clearly doing things wrong, because I was Doing It Right. Looking back at it, though, I realized he was totally comfortable in that position, and by moving his head wherever he wanted, he could easily see all the sights as we went by. As for me, my range of view was extremely limited by my body position, and I had to use my new helicopter turn skills to keep my body in position in the current to see even that narrow range. But I was doing it right, by golly, so he was doing it wrong.

I often get into discourse with people who see my videos and go oh so you changed from horizontal and are not in perfect trim. My reply is that whatever position I am comfortable in is perfect trim for me. I hate that restricted view and get a sore neck from being in the "perfect trim" position so many think I should have. One thing in some threads here, some people will come to a thread and claim if you don't plan your gas, have enough air for the other divers in your calculations and count thirds ( cause they will both somehow contrive to have the same catastrophic failure at the same time ) or that you are insane for diving deeper than 30m on an AL 80 without bringing a pony backup supply.. I asked questions for Dody to answer but other people answered first. Mainly is that if you are doing recreational dives and not exceeding NDL then who cares if your dive computer or spg fails, you have a dive buddy and just end the dive and safely surface. No big deal. We all are trained to share regs and air. In other threads you are guilty of bad maintenance of your equipment or failure to do proper dive planning. Having a log showing deeper than 40m on a training dive, yeah that could affect travel insurance.

I've had people tell me they would never trust a battery powered SPG that I use but trust their battery powered dive computer. Why? the battery might fail on my Cressi Digital SPG lol. Do I plan gas for a recreational dive? What is the point if the dive will be to a max depth of 20m with some vacation divers with my sac rate being much better than theirs. They will need to be shallower to get in a 50 - 60 minute dive time.

The best dive I had last year was one I have posted here. A dive to 35m on a wreck then ascending a slope to a reef wall at around 15m and following that until we got to 50 bar and did safety stop and ended the dive. That was our dive plan, dive ending 50 bar and get on the boat. 93 minutes of joy. No getting from a to b in a set time, not limiting the dive on time, no exceeding NDL... just having fun. Isn't that why it's called recreational diving? I get the feeling if Dody wants to extend his NDL time he will know how to do that on his dive computer or just use Nitrox 32% or both.

I've had great dives with DM guides and great dives with just regular dive buddies on our own dives.

 

[Steelyeyes]

My head has been swimming throughout this thread, and I have something of a big picture commentary on it all.

I got certified quite a while ago and logged quite a few dives as an AOW diver before rapidly going from Rescue Diver to DM, after which I assisted in classes for a couple years before becoming an instructor. After being an OW instructor for a couple of years, I thought I was pretty much at the top of the game. Then I started tech instruction in the DIR mode. I realized that I was pretty much a beginner again, and I worked hard on my new skills.

I began to apply those tech skills to recreational diving, and I saw my fellow recreational divers in a new light. I remember one drift dive in Cozumel in which I was in the approved DIR position, flatly horizontal, my knees bent 90° with feet up and head tilted back as far as possible as I drifted. One of the other divers had assumed a (to me) strange position, almost a sitting hover, as we drifted past the coral wall. For some reason watching him annoyed me. He was clearly doing things wrong, because I was Doing It Right. Looking back at it, though, I realized he was totally comfortable in that position, and by moving his head wherever he wanted, he could easily see all the sights as we went by. As for me, my range of view was extremely limited by my body position, and I had to use my new helicopter turn skills to keep my body in position in the current to see even that narrow range. But I was doing it right, by golly, so he was doing it wrong.

Today I am a (non-DIR) trimix instructor and a cave diver. I have decent tech skills, but they rarely come into play on recreational dives. I realize now that I had a false sense of superiority during that middle period of my diving. Maybe I was frustrated that the other divers could not see the benefits of my superior training in that environment. I would like to think I am a bigger man than that, but maybe not.

Lots of recreational divers have no idea what SAC or RMV or SCR or whatever you want to call it means. So what? They can dive just fine without that knowledge, just as I did for many years, including my first years as an OW instructor. They can do a vertical ascent or descent just fine. They are not getting the supposed benefits of that beautiful horizontal ascent, which I suspect for most people amounts to a demonstration for all to see that they can do it. I now believe that when a lot of people get that superior training and experience they develop with it a psychological need to use it when it really isn't necessary, and with that comes an accompanying need to believe it is truly necessary for everyone else to do the same.

I really like what you said here. I live in Bonaire now and get to dive whenever I want, or can get away from projects. When tourists were here more (early Covid days) I'd see people in tech diving positions diving around the Salt Pier in 40 feet of water. I didn't get the point of doing underwater yoga or whatever it was to just swim from A to B.

I trim myself horizontally by positioning a few weights here and there. That way I can be relaxed and still move in any direction I want. I shoot photos and who knows what position I might take to get a good one, included inverted with my head and camera down. People are so judgey. Dive and let dive.

I've been to 40 meters a couple of times. Once in the Blue Hole, which I found fascinating for it's geology and silence (minus others in the group that had to squeak and squawk through their regs for some reason), and one on the M/V Bianca C wreck in Grenada. I don't see the point of going deep just for the sake of punching a ticket. It's good to do it with supervision to know your limits with narcosis, etc. but the risk should have a reward.

Oh, and kneeling on the bottom for a buoyancy check, OMG!!!!!

 

[Blackcrusader]

I mentioned the horizontal ascent and I explained why I think it is relevant.
I don't get why DIR or non-DIR is relevant to this discussion.

There are times when a horizontal ascent is fine in other times being vertical is comfortable and when horizontal it's not as easy to look around. Sometimes at safety stop depth I am in a sitting position with crossed legs like a Buddha.. nice and comfy..

 

[Blackcrusader]

I trim myself horizontally by positioning a few weights here and there. That way I can be relaxed and still move in any direction I want. I shoot photos and who knows what position I might take to get a good one, included inverted with my head and camera down. People are so judgey. Dive and let dive. Oh, and kneeling on the bottom for a buoyancy check, OMG!!!!!

I was on dive with a good German friend of mine. He lost track of me because I went head down but I was staying directly above his head. I would turn where he turned or move to stay out of his line of sight. He could not find me as he looked up but never directly overhead. Later he took this shot of me. I do this sometimes to look under coral platforms.