Fins for Frog Kick

[ChillyWaters]

Okay, perhaps someone can educate me?

First, I don't see fatigue being a reason to do frog kicks. How much are people kicking anyways? Is there some underwater scuba race that somebody didn't tell me about?

The only time when fatigue is much of an issue, is for long swims to a site, or for fighting a current. The arguments I've heard _for_ split fins are that 1) the small flutter kick is effortless, and 2) you can thus maintain it for a long time without any fatigue. It's been true for me.

If you're worrying about silting, well, with split fins and a small flutter kick, you shouldn't silt much up. The water goes behind you, unlike the paddle fins -- in which case frog kicks may be essential. Just remember, do a _small_ and fast flutter, not those big strokes you use with paddle fins.

I'd suggest figuring out how to dive with your fins before tossing them in for a replacement. They aren't broke. Reverse finning may be tougher, but I'm not about to throw away all the advantages of the split, just to be able to go backwards once-in-a-while.

Try both types of fins, then decide what's best for you. But buying a fin _just_ so you can do frog kicks sounds VERY short-sighted.

- ChillyWaters

 

[Bryan.]

My 2 cents is that the best type of fin is both the SP Jet and the Turtle. Both combined w/ the Halcyon Spring Straps. Reason... 1) Weight - they are both heavy 2) Stiff 3) Fantastic in currents 4) Fantastic for finning - frog kick, helicopter turns, backing up. Everyone has an opinion - this is mine. For the type of diving that we do here in the Ontario Great Lakes - these are the fins that work the best for me.

Hope this helps!

 

[dherbman]

Okay, perhaps someone can educate me?

First, I don't see fatigue being a reason to do frog kicks. How much are people kicking anyways? Is there some underwater scuba race that somebody didn't tell me about?

The only time when fatigue is much of an issue, is for long swims to a site, or for fighting a current. The arguments I've heard _for_ split fins are that 1) the small flutter kick is effortless, and 2) you can thus maintain it for a long time without any fatigue. It's been true for me.

If you're worrying about silting, well, with split fins and a small flutter kick, you shouldn't silt much up. The water goes behind you, unlike the paddle fins -- in which case frog kicks may be essential. Just remember, do a _small_ and fast flutter, not those big strokes you use with paddle fins.

I'd suggest figuring out how to dive with your fins before tossing them in for a replacement. They aren't broke. Reverse finning may be tougher, but I'm not about to throw away all the advantages of the split, just to be able to go backwards once-in-a-while.

Try both types of fins, then decide what's best for you. But buying a fin _just_ so you can do frog kicks sounds VERY short-sighted.

- ChillyWaters

I was on a recreational dive trip to Roatan recently with a large group from our LDS. Three of us were in Jet Fins, the rest wore splits.

The most obvious difference I noticed was the kick rate. 5:1 at the least and 10:1 in some cases. Your "small and fast" description is lacking one element to accurately describe the flutter kick and that is the word "constant". There's not much momentum developed with the flutter kick and you need to kick constantly to maintain forward movement.

Another issue related to kicking is air consumption. The larger leg muscles are used for a flutter kick and they are in constant motion, resulting in greater air consumption than the more energy conservative frog kick. The muscles used to do a frog kick can be isolated to the point that only the calf and muscles used to drive the ankles are involved.

Another obvious difference was during swim throughs or times when we were near the bottom. I have some video where I followed a split fin through as the bomb craters were blasted away. I frequently tuck my head down to scan behind me and there is none of this while frog kicking. Your "small kick" solution produces less thrust and requires more kicking to cover the same ground. It's not a solution at all and the result will be the same as using a normal flutter kick stroke. The issue is that thrust is directed into the silt with the flutter.

It's not entirely about the frog kick. It's also about control and response. The Jet Fins are far more responsive, requiring less movement to generate thrust.

Fatigue also comes into play when you are making multiple dives. If you are kicking constantly, you will fatigue.

I'd suggest figuring out how to dive with your fins before tossing them in for a replacement. They aren't broke. Reverse finning may be tougher, but I'm not about to throw away all the advantages of the split, just to be able to go backwards once-in-a-while.

Tell you what, send me a video of you back kicking in splits and I'll send you $100. Make a ten foot distance and that will earn you $10/foot. It's not "harder", it's not practically possible. Back kicking is not some useless novelty kick. I use it primarily not to go backwards, but to hold position.

Splits have their place, but so do mopeds. That place is not with me, but that's not to say there is anything wrong with them for you.

Try both types of fins, then decide what's best for you.

Great advice. I gave the splits a year and went back to Jets/Turtles, so I have experience in using them both. While I prefer Jet Fins for more than just the reasons I've already given, I recommend splits for virtually all new divers because they are easier to learn to use. There is not much technique required for doing a flutter kick and many new divers will be put off at the time and effort required to perfect advanced kicks.
How much time do you have in paddle fins?

 

[runamonk]

Okay, perhaps someone can educate me?

First, I don't see fatigue being a reason to do frog kicks. How much are people kicking anyways? Is there some underwater scuba race that somebody didn't tell me about?

The only time when fatigue is much of an issue, is for long swims to a site, or for fighting a current. The arguments I've heard _for_ split fins are that 1) the small flutter kick is effortless, and 2) you can thus maintain it for a long time without any fatigue. It's been true for me.

If you're worrying about silting, well, with split fins and a small flutter kick, you shouldn't silt much up. The water goes behind you, unlike the paddle fins -- in which case frog kicks may be essential. Just remember, do a _small_ and fast flutter, not those big strokes you use with paddle fins.

I'd suggest figuring out how to dive with your fins before tossing them in for a replacement. They aren't broke. Reverse finning may be tougher, but I'm not about to throw away all the advantages of the split, just to be able to go backwards once-in-a-while.

Try both types of fins, then decide what's best for you. But buying a fin _just_ so you can do frog kicks sounds VERY short-sighted.

- ChillyWaters

I love my split fins, they are as you said "Effortless" and a huge difference in the amount of stress on knees and calves in comparison to my paddle fins.

I still want to do the frog kick because it keeps you in better trim, watching someone very experienced with the frogkick brings it all into focus.

You can do the frogkick with splits, it's just not as effective is all. I know a few people who have refused to give up their splits for jets or paddles and they exclusively do the frogkick.

Whatever makes you comfortable under the water is all that matters.

 

[ChillyWaters]

I still want to do the frog kick because it keeps you in better trim

Just curious as to how the frog kick allows you to keep a better trim?

- ChillyWaters

 

[Rick Murchison]

If it's the FROG kick you want, the best fin is...
Are you ready for this???
.
.
.
The FROG! (Cressi)
Surprise, surprise
Rick (Owner of Frogs, Jets & Blades)

 

[alo100]

I am not a regular user of Jets, today I borrowed one from my friend and tried it.
It's good, but by the end of it, one of my calves has a bit feeling of cramp. Then I also tried frog kicks with the Jets towing another guy at the surface, I personally think that Jets is most powerful with flutter kicks, but of course, I also wouldn't doubt that there are others who can use the Jets better than I do, as they are more used to the fins with frog kicks.

My first pair of fins is Beuchat contact pro, it's designed by the same guy as Jets, the ventiles and everythings look very similar. It's easier to kick, no cramp for me to worry about, but could be a bit less powerful than Jets.

I'd say, it's good to find something which fits your most frequently used kicking style,
I doubted that if you use split fins, you would use much more energy than, say, Jets with frog kicks; but then back to the topic, fins that will allow you to do frog kicks, yeah, try the frog fins also.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Frog kicking keeps you in better trim because (if performed correctly) your feet are up instead of hanging down or straight behind you kicking up crap so that everyone else can't see.
With a properly performed frog kick your feet are up and your are pushing BEHIND you, whereas with a flutter kick, when your feet are in the down stroke the water has nowhere to go but down, thus usually kicking up huge clounds of silt behind you. Of course, most people don't notice this because they don't ever look behind them and lack good situational awareness...

 

[Spratman]

I use my AL Blades II. They are fairly stiff and if I don't pay attention, I'll frog kick away from dive buddies. They complain I move too fast but it's just the power in the kicks.

I have a DM I dive with and his frog kicks are so powerful, that I have to kick like crazy just to keep up with him.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Then there are the flutter kickers who think they have to kick and see the ENTIRE wreck from bow to stern. I couldn't keep up with the insta-buddy I had on the Duane one day, no matter how hard I kicked. In his process of "seeing whole wreck" he really didn't see anything at all...he only glanced at it as he went by. Personally I prefer to find one spot of the wreck/reef and just hover around it and watch the marine life...